Are We Asking For It?
This is a response to a comment on my article here on sexual clickbait.
Are we asking for it?
@cogliostro has a strange answer to that question.
Ladies, in the wild, in lawless conditions with no police - you need to cover up, because otherwise you will get raped all the time by horny men.
Covering up helps a decent woman only get raped some of the time, not constantly and not by everyone. It helps her gain favor with the other females, who are less likely to see her as a "slut" and unfair competition. The decent men of the tribe are inspired by this, and often are willing to give their lives to protect the decent women from all dangers, all rapists, domestic and international.
In his opinion women wear clothes in order to protect themselves from the ever so daunting and oppressive nature of males. He claims that if we didn’t, we’d ”get raped all the time.” This is both shocking and curious.
When I asked myself the above question, “why do we wear clothes?” I came up with several very different answers. Perhaps I’m too cold or too hot, want to cover up, or shield myself from mosquitos.
He has a pretty strange ideology, but I continued to read anyway.
That is the origin of our "oppressive" custom to dress modestly, and not spread your legs for the public in wantonly, tawdry self-glorification.
Here is where it starts to become a rollercoaster...
Restricting Women’s Freedom
Does it restrict women's freedom to bar them from such cheap thrills? Sure. But so what?
Telling women what and what not to wear is restrictive, but it isn’t to bar them from cheap thrills-- it bars us from expressing ourselves.
In my opinion, women should be able to wear whatever they want. Hell, they could be naked for all I care (as long as it’s abiding local laws or they’re indoors). Regardless, it does not excuse rape, and the perpetrator should be held accountable for their actions.
“One of the basic tenants of the United States Constitution is freedom of expression. If a woman makes a choice to wear a short skirt or go bra-less she had the God given and Constitutional right to do without harassment or fear of bodily harm.” (debate.org)
Where it gets scary
Police restricts men's freedom too. Common decency restricts men's freedom even further, as far as their interaction with women.
As you pretend not to know (but I know you know), men have a biological reflex, they get a hard dick from seeing your wondrous feminine charms and men always want to fuck - often when you don't.
This is terrifying.
I’m familiar with biological urges. I have them, as well. But I also have self control.
Surely, this isn’t a valid excuse for modern misbehavior.
Do men really feel this way?
If you want men to magically be "OK" with it, to ignore everything they were evolved to do and be, then you will end up destroying men and you will be left utterly miserable on your own with other miserable women. You can't push and push indefinitely, dangling sex in front of men's faces like a scarlet cloth in front of a raging bull, without experiencing a pushback that will send you flying, and land you right on your naive ass in the middle of ridiculously unfavorable circumstances you never bargained for or deserved.
His last sentence is possibly the only one that is remotely agreeable to me.
“Ridiculously unfavorable circumstances you never bargained for or deserved” is damn right. Being harassed or raped is never deserved.
The rest of it is absolutely toxic, though.
We hope you go back to being your sweet, unpretentious and modest selves very soon, inspiring us to see you as the treasured and cherished mother of our future unborn children... not as a fuck doll to be used by every Jack and Joe. And that you discard this silly blue hair diversion you misguidedly call "empowerment" forever.
Lovingly yours,
The Good Men.
This is one of the things that motivates me as an activist. Some people still think that it’s okay to blame the victim, or that it’s okay to control and manipulate people to fit their standards.
His entire letter is an apologist perspective on rape.
I’m trying very hard to be objective, but it is nearly impossible with this one. I disagree with this because it denies women basic rights and freedoms.
Empowerment is different for everyone, and sure, sometimes it’s defined by what we wear. But that is never an excuse to mistreat or tell anyone what to do.
A “good man” is respectful.
Stop telling women what to wear, and stop telling women how to not get raped.
Thanks for reading. Question and discuss.
Its so true! Statistically there hasn't been any evidence that supports that a woman wearing more revealing clothing is any more likely to raped.
So this makes it clear that rapists pick their targets for other reasons, Such as opportunity.
Like what does society expect us to do? Women who are too "pretty" naturally also have issues and are often harassed. Are we supposed to wear a full blown costume and bags over our heads?
I often get criticized for "flaunting" the fact that I'm a woman because I have similar interests to men, Such as gaming, physical labor and illustration.
Which is absolutely ridiculous!
I hope society changes their stances on this. Women deserve to feel comfortable in their own skin. and how do you tell a little girl something like that? When she wants to wear a cute dress that is really short? That men are "out of control" and you have no right to wear that dress!?
But a man shirtless, Will probably walk on by, and no one judges him for it.
Or the woman who have had cancer, And no longer have breasts. Their chest looks IDENTICAL to a mans chest, But they can't walk around shirtless? And they have to wear bikini tops, Which it literally does nothing for them.
I understand why busty women would rather wear a top, But it all should be OPTIONAL!
We are animals like every other animal on this planet. They arent forced to wear clothes! Why are we forced? You don't see people trying to put a T shirt on a grizzly bear in the wild because of "indecent exposure".
Im not a nudist or anything, But people should be free to wear what they want. Even if nothing is their choice.
But personally I'd probably still wear clothes when I go outside, Because I want to protect myself from the sun.
There is evidence that rape is actually higher in countries where female sexuality is repressed and controlled, for instance by making them wear burkas. (And on a side note, studies show that female body image issues are even more pronounced (rather than less) in these countries.)
Careful feeding the trolls. 😜
Maybe letting men "see" a bit or even a lot is a good thing then. I mean if they want to think and not touch, Thats doesn't hurt anyone.
Thank you for saying this! I was starting to think I was crazy from so frequently getting comments like this.
I saw this video last year and it surprised me how different the attention was toward this woman based on how she dressed while walking around NYC. It also made me not want to visit NYC.
ok, is this working for you in the long term, like in tomorrow?
you are crazy, make no mistake
here is evidence that rape is actually higher in countries where female sexuality is repressed and controlled, for instance by making them wear burkas. (And on a side note, stjdoes show that female body image issues are even more pronounced (rather than less) in these countries.)
Careful feeding the trolls. 😜
I agree. This was in NYC, though, so I still think it's valid.
I never understood why people are still telling women what to wear, or if they can show their boobs in public or not. I mean, this is the most iconic picture of the French revolution:
I think we've settled the debate 200 fucking years ago. Let's not go back to antiquated "rules".
I don't understand it either, yet it still happens all the time. A get a lot of controversy over my articles but I think it's important to talk about things like this.
Man checking in. If a man really wants to act like a man, it means self respect, respect for others, and responsibility for your actions. It does it mean acting on some biological instinct and justifying it as an excuse for a ridiculous whim.
Everyone thinks they are the hero in an argument, but anyone making the stance that a women's freedom of expression "makes them" act a certain way is ignorant.
We should not be teaching women to cover up. We should be teaching men to act like men and act like a decent human being.
DONT TELL ME WHAT ACTING LIKE A MAN IS STUPID FUCK
THIS!
WHEN SHIT IS CONVENIEnT TO YOU YOU JUMP LIKE A WHORE LITTLE KID ON A LOLLIPOP
WHO WOULD KNOW?
That guy seriously needs to look at the kind of stuff he is saying.
Yes men have a very high sex drive compared to most women (because of testosterone) but that does not mean we are uncontrollable animals.
Just because you can appreciate a good looking woman in revealing clothing does not equate to being so overcome with desire that you can't control yourself - that is a cop out for criminal behaviour.
I suspect that these kind of immature, mysoginistic morons would probably complain just the same if women dressed modestly and covered up.
It is a stupid argument because it blames the victim.
Even having the back ground of these conversations, it just hurt my head. I had to go back and read it a second time.
The way I read his argument is that he has an extremely low view of men. Except for himself.
Men have Overwhelming sexual urges towards women, RAWR!!! Except for him.
Men either can't or don't want to control these urges, RAWR! Except for him.
Women that don't take some measures, whether it be wearing clothes or lock
themselves (or the men) in cages, increase the likelihood that the women will be raped. RAWR!
[Many women in tribes, such as the Dogon, are topless, yet not much of a rape issue.]
In modern society, rape is shunned as much as racism. While these arguments may of held in pre-civilization (when clothing was still worn by the way) there has been a relatively consistent trend by society as a WHOLE to agree that rape is bad. While this by no means says that it never occurs, the act itself is deplorable to just about anybody.
Have respect for the men! Look at how far the human race has come from Socrates and Plato to Einstien and @team-leibniz. There is no way to argue that rape, assault, hate or other blatant forms of human disrespect are acceptable. From ANYONE!
While there is plenty of discussion to the general psychology and tendencies that grew from evolutionary biology, this argument just doesn't make sense. Nobody argues that we are the same as cave men. We hold ourselves as a the current human race to a higher standard. If you're trying to honestly equate men getting horny by looking at porn, clickbait or sexualized advertising to a justification for why ALL women need to do ANYTHING...I just don't buy it. There isn't a core argument that ties your beginning and ends together.
Next you'll be telling me that because the Easter bunny is covered in polka dots the sky is falling.
Let's all just agree to hold ourselves to a higher standard of respect and discourse.
*mic drop
I've chosen your post to respond, as I've detected genuine thought going on - an attempt to understand what you're facing. Thank you kindly, and it's my pleasure to now show that there was indeed a core argument, which you regrettably missed.
As you know, my post was itself a response to another discussion. That discussion was about how "women should do whatever they want with their sexuality". I pointed out that the restrictions that classical cultures place on women are not arbitrary, they arise from social necessity. Female sexuality is not the only player on the block, there is also male sexuality which must be considered & taken into account.
Women sexually flaunting themselves to men who cannot do anything about it - that is a recipe for disaster.
Veralynn may not know it, but her feminism is meant to lead to disaster. It is meant to destroy the fabric of society, like a nerve poison.
This type of feminism is all about maximally unrestricted female sexuality with maximally restricted male sexuality.
"I should be able to wave the scarlet cloth in front of the bull's face and be safe, this is my safe space!"
Good, good - but only as long as there are men with guns and gavels, who provide you with the physical and legal protection you need for your exercise in unrestricted female sexuality ("empowerment"). As soon as these artificial protections are whisked away, you either instantly become a decent woman who covers up and is careful about opening her mouth too much around strange men, or you careen into a complete trainwreck - becoming a serial victim to any lawless men around, who will treat you like human trash.
Being a decent woman and not provoking men sexually is in effect a kind of insurance policy, which makes it more likely that other men will protect you if bad situations happen, and other women view you more favorably (somebody worth defending).
One does get the distinct impression though, that I am talking to children. Children who think "I should be able to have all the candies I want!!", and are ill equipped to understand the concept of dental caries, or the loss of smiles and health it brings.
I'm voting "Sycochica for President 2016"
This isn't even the whole thing, if you can believe that!
I agree with you. Usually I am very open minded to this type of discussion, but as I said earlier, this one was very difficult for me to look at objectively. I don't think this mindset is healthy.
I've actually been lurking this topic for a couple weeks now. I really feel for you!
You've acted admirably! :)
As @team-leibniz would say, he's gone LIMBIC! Lol
may of held???
All I got from his message was "I don't know how to control my own urges, and I'm going to blame women for it". - Makes me see him as a sad existens.
I think women and men, should wear what ever they want, even if the laws says otherwise. The only place I can tell you what to do, is on my own property. (That goes for politicians and police as well.) I'd probably not trade with someone, if he or she were completely naked in public. Since I think it sends the wrong picture to children. But using violence to stop them, naah, not really my thing.
Besides, not all men get a boner from ze feminine body. Have he never heard of gay people before?
Exactly! A lot of people that disagree with my articles only make hetero-normative arguments. It's quite reductive. I definitely agree that (in my opinion) intellect matters a lot more in a sexual partner. But, we're not really talking about consensual partners here.
Either way, some people still think that way! Thus why I'm bringing it up for discussion.
He sure is talking a lot about chicks, in his own posts. - I just skimmed them briefly, and really. I can say for a fact, that his type, is a dying breed.
You're absolutely right, we aren't talking about consentual partners. But then again, there are grown men and women, that rape children. That's definitely not for the feminine body either.
He sure is talking a lot about chicks, in his own posts. - I just skimmed them briefly, and really. I can say for a fact, that his type, is a dying breed.
He's not a he, his type doesn't exist and never did, not in the real world.
I know people wish they did. Perhaps we just have this desire to have villains. Feels good to have an enemy, someone to hate. Makes it easy to point and say look some folks are just evil!
No they aren't. No one is binary, we exist within a spectrum, and literally no one lives at the far end of the spectrum like that. This is how you know it's fake.
This person is just a troll, playing a game like a little kid. Role playing a character to the point of being nothing more than a caricature. Causing everyone who buys into it to respond to flame bait.
This character is being portrayed by someone who is getting their willies from playing provocateur and trapping everyone into some bs "good vs evil" dialog based on some seriously flawed assumptions of what good and evil really are.
Best way to deal with it is the mute button, first time you see it, every time you see it.
Don't even waste the effort playing. Each time you do, you're giving them power.
Welcome to #gamergateredux
Don't feed the trolls please, it leaves an unsightly mess.
The way I see it, I'm being rewarded by "feeding" them. While I agree with your sentiment, I have no problem calling people out. It actually motivates me.
^ I'll feed the trolls as much as I want to, as long as it's either entertaining me, or bringing me money. So don't tell me what to do. ^_^
Well, I don't see you mentioning vera profiting from the false assumption that women in the west are opressed.
Doesn't that bother you at all?
You are a marvellous psychoanalyst, Will! I would like to retain your services for all future posts I may be making, and you're welcome to let me know your current rates.
The analysis is simply superlative, only marred very slightly by the fact that it is completely wrong.
Why should I mention that? Why should I care, @somedude ?
Doesn't it bother you, that soccer players get paid millions a month, while children starve? Doesn't it bother you, that politicians and cops get paid for ruining lives? Doesn't it bother you, that soldiers get paid to kill innocent people?
So many questions.
I didn't bother checking his account, I was actually just getting back to replies on my own articles and felt like this one was long enough for a response. I do hope that people stop this mindset soon.
I always ask questions and give the community a topic to discuss. That is always my main focus. I won't call you out unless you are absolutely malevolent and harass me. :)
Eey, @veralynn On a sidenote, but kinda the same topic, then I made a post earlier, you might find interesting. Since it's about some Danish guys tricking young women(girls) into sharing nudes of themselves, and then they publish them publicly.
Ah, yes, thank you for pointing that out. Oops. Corrected.
It was a waste of time really, he even copy/pasted one of his own posts. Not really worth the time I spent.
I can definitely appreciate that. Though I asume you mean "malevolent"? Unless you want to call out people for showing you goodwill and kindness. :D
^ Then again, "good" people don't really get much attention these days. It's always about the bad things. So that could be what you meant.
Dear Misty, I feel you'll have a hard time with sapiosexuality, considering that you are obviously a violent female imbecile.
Mayhap you should consider a different kink - cowboy hats or, better - baseball hats worn backwards, that would be more your own gangsta league to aspire to.
Dear Mr. Cornholio. I'm a guy, and I'm pretty docile. But good guess with the "obviousness" of who I am. ^_^
Does sapiosexuality offend you? Been rejected too much, for being a dumb dick, maybe? Anyway, nice try,
Some of these comments are disgusting. I'm sorry on behalf of my gender that you have to put up with that. I'll write a longer response when I get a chance to read through the previous threads.
In general I don't think the golden rule, treat someone as you'd like to be treated, is strong enough. Instead I prefer to live by the platinum rule. Treat someone how she wants to be treated. Women don't want to feel oppressed, controlled, or put down for being themselves.
I've heard about you. Aren't you the fellow who proudly handed out hygenic tampons to all the girls in his high school class, because he felt men are not doing their part? Why should women have to suffer this malady in secrecy and shame while we men are privileged to never have to worry about it, the fellow reasoned - I will save the girls, or at least save them some money! It was on the news, and delighted me greatly!
I was a clueless sexist homophobe in high school. But eventually I woke up. And I understand your argument is not provoking men is a freeroll, but how about let's give men a little more credit and teach them to try to not be unempathetic to intersectional oppression of women rather than telling women how they should act to avoid constant raping
cut the catfish game, we know you are a feminist female
Gender or Sex stupid fuck?
Why so angry?
easy fucktard
@feminism and @earnest are the same person. He likes to harass people.
@feminism Those are two different things.
hahahahhhhhhHhH
His comments are ridiculous, and not in the ha ha funny way. It is absurd to say that women are at fault for a man not being able to control his own emotions. No one (man or woman) should be raped because of what they are or are not wearing. We need to start teaching our men how to treat women instead of teaching our women how to defend themselves from those so called men. No one should give control of their body to another person. Period. Yes, men have "biological urges", that's fine. I have "biological urges" as well. I also have shopping urges, and crying urges, and fighting urges, and a miriad of other vices, that doesn't mean I have carte blanche to act upon them. What I have, that obviously this man does not, is self control and respect of my fellow human beings. I currently have an "urge" to kick him in the face, but the powers that be and my self control are keeping that from happening.
SHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
I agree 10000000%
LEARN TO SUCK A COCK FIRST
YOU MIGHT BE SURPRISED WHAT YOU CAN GET VIA JUST SUCKING A COCK RIGHT
LEARN TO SUCK A COCK FIRST, ITS ESSENTIAL IN HUMAN ENDEARVORS
We need to teach thieves not to rob instead of being careful with our belongings!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I agree
I am so cute.
Hey vera, isn't ending all your posts with xoxo vera objectifying? Or do you find empowering?
It's a signature. Get over yourself.
Dude, my grandfather signs with xoxo. You are reading way too far into it.
Also, that was a good article. Thanks for sharing. I personally like girl gatherings because it makes me feel safe. But there's nothing wrong with what she's saying.
Look Vera, https://steemit.com/philosophy/@katyakov/why-do-we-need-this-girl-power
Read and feel like an idiot.
Yeah, I know, but is it empowering or objectifying?
Do you do that because you are a girl? Would you send kisses with your signature if you weren't one?
I know an honest answer is something i cannot ask of you
xoxoxoxooxoxoxox
XO
I linked this post from my latest (https://steemit.com/bees/@jwaser/flow-hive-honey-on-tap-directly-from-your-beehive-and-awesome-bee-t-shirts) by saying:
As a supporter of Minnows Unite, I would like to draw your attention to
https://steemit.com/bees/@kental/secrets-of-the-beekeeper-subtlety-beekeeping-bees
https://steemit.com/feminism/@veralynn/are-we-asking-for-it
https://steemit.com/steemit/@veralynn/women-of-steemit-vol-3
Hopefully it will give you a bump. (My husband tells me he owes you one)