Vlog 318: Voting bots or promotional services have their place on the blockchain for now.
I have written two post recently where I believe that earning STEEM on the blockchain is moving from content creators to entrepreneurs here and here.
I consider this a positive thing because entrepreneurs make the blockchain grow with the development of apps and tools and also give investors a reason to invest and a place to get ROI on STEEM besides blogging and curating.
Content creators will earn a little less STEEM while we are in the transition period towards SMT's.
On one of the articles I made this graphic explaining how I see things.
This is a question I received regarding this graphic and below it my answer.
The question was regarding voting bots or promotional services and how I feel about them.
After writing that comment I thought about it the whole night.
I think the two biggest arguments people have against voting bots at the moment are:
- Anyone can promote content to trending (wether it's good or bad).
- It takes away rewards from other content creators.
But there are also positive arguments to be made, namely:
- Voting bots give investors that don't want to blog or curate a tool to make ROI (return on investment) and therefor a reason to buy STEEM.
- It locks up SP so it can't be sold on the market.
- It gives users that want to a tool to promote their content. (And remember: You don't make money using a bot even though the payout might be high).
Voting bots rely for a large part on delegation and the fact that people want to use them to exist.
Now the fact that people want to use them with a negative ROI (again they are not profitable for the user, only the investor) to push their content already tells me they have their place on the blockchain.
But let's say you wanted to end them somehow.
How would you go about it?
A possible solution is to ban delegation all together.
No delegation, no voting bots (except for a few big whale accounts).
But that causes a problem because a lot of projects also rely on that same delegation to exists. (dtube, dlive, dsound, utopian.io and more).
I rather not see them go I think they add tremendous value to the blockchain.
So that's not really a solution.
Another solution would be to somehow ban people from using them.
I'm not in favour (if this was even possible) because I hate to see restriction of freedom on here.
Personally I see a much simpler solution (and I'm not even against voting bots).
A solution elegant and very much in line with the blockchain of opportunity.
Simply come up with better ideas or projects that need delegated SP but offer a greater return on investment than a voting bot.
You will then see all that delegated SP flow to these new ideas and projects and the 'problem' will be solved.
Pretty simple right?
But until that happens Voting Bots have their place.
I talk about it more in my vlog.
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I don't think bidbots have anything to do with delegation. The act of selling votes would still happen even without it.
Why bother curating and getting 25% of your votes back, when you can delegate and passively get ~90%? Sure that's the current situation and clearly bots are here to stay, but is it really good for the network? Your arguments about how it's a positive thing for the STEEM token value (coins being locked, authors buying sbd on markets, etc) are valid, but what is the value of that compared to the original vision of steem to 'rank the web' and create something truly world-changing? Look at the steemit trending, 100% of it is through bidbot usage, and a large percentage of those are advertising very questionable schemes (see current top post about ormus).
You also say that those bidbots are good for minnows so they can give themselves a push, but remember that they need to pay money for that. Before bid bots, we technically truly helped minnows, out of pure generosity. Now it's a PAID service, I don't think it's right to call it 'helping the minnows'. Minnows are just forced into doing it, because it's the current top strategy for them, and growing through networking and good content like before isn't possible. Those bidbots actually advertise themselves like that, but it's a huge lie in my views.
If we want bidbots to be legit and rename them to 'promotion services', then a lot of work needs to be done on the UIs to warn people about which posts or videos are promoted, just like on any other social networks.
However I believe that the current need of steem power holders to delegate to bid bots stems from too low returns from curation. Also the lack of peg on SBD keeps on pushing the author/curator split more and more in favor of authors, reducing curation rewards, and making people more likely to want to 'sell their votes' instead.
Minnows can earn money to pay for bots. Bots like @dustsweeper are pretty cheap and necessary with that .02 payout threshold.
Fair point but because it's automatic through delegation it has become a lot easier to do so.
I believe the solution is already worked on in the form of SMT's. With 1P1V and oracles. I see this period now as a transition period until SMT's come out. It's a rough ride for some of us. But when I think about this blockchain 3 years from now no-one will remember this period. Just like almost no-one remembers n^2 and just steemit.com. People will just earn SMT with content creation and trade them for STEEM.
I don't call it helping the minnows. I call it a tool to promote content. The tool has a negative ROI (in general).
I think the problem now is that investors have now been shown a better and easier way to earn ROI. Not everyone likes to curate. I don't think it's realistic to think that investors would all of the sudden start to curate when you increase the incentive to do so. It's just to much work.
Again I believe SMT's will solve a lot of these things in the future and I can't wait for them to come out.
I completely agree with you @exyle. This is common fight between capitalist and socialist/communists. Investors have invested their hard earned money from some other activity here and so they need to be rewarded. And system does not stop a persistent quality content creator rising to the top but obviously not in a day - As Rome Was Not Built in a Day.
What will give those SMTs value?
this is the million dollar question @cardboard and because the answer is so complicated I have absolute confidence 80% of SMT's will be shitcoins.
I believe im being generous with the 80% too, because in the ERC20 world the number is closer to 99%.
What needs to happen, what should happen, is that a community, or a business that launches an SMT does so with a demand proposition along with it or you are simply creating a little pump and dump shitcoin.
For example, lets say someone creates an addictive game (hopefully what steemmonsters becomes) and they sell the cards only, exclusively for their MonsterCoin-SMT then, if the game is awesome enough, this would create demand for the coin from day one.
Since steem is the portal sort of speak into buying the MonsterCoin-SMT this also creates a demand for Steem.
I imagine it would flow something like this (assuming we don't get a fiat to Steem option)
Fiat -> BTC -> Steem -> MonsterCoin-SMT
At eat stage there is speculative gains to be made, thus keeping liquidity inside the markets.
Now, I'm not saying this is what SteemMonsters is going to do, I just thought up an example of how an SMT could potentially generate its demand.
Thank you for the answer! Tip! 2
The good thing with SMT every token is liquid and has value even shitcoins, you can exchange it back to Steem. :)
That is potentially accurate... I don't have any details pertaining this, but I would assume a bot would be setup to guarantee liquidity. Ver much in the way SBD and Steem interact.
Source:
https://steemit.com/smt/@steemitblog/smart-media-token-development
perfect.. I expected as much, I just was not sure.
Hi @meno! You have received 2.0 SBD tip from @cardboard!
@cardboard wrote lately about: Steepshot #Clouds Feel free to follow @cardboard if you like it :)
Earn daily income on steem: @tipU distributes 100% profit + 60% curation rewards to all investors.
This is what I've struggled to grasp with SMT's. From what I understand, you--the website owner or whatever--has to fund up the SMT for your users to adopt. I can't see this going very well on SME's whatsoever.
The hope on this one is that it is aimed squarely at the top tier social communities attached to publications and the like. I'm not convinced that it is a product that is something they need.
Good question. Thought about that a lot too.
Considering you can tweak the SMT's to your own desire it's basicly up to the entrepreneur to add value to them and give people a reason to desire them.
I think we will see a lot of use cases we can't even think of today.
If you just see what people did with only one token so far (STEEM) I think it will be an awesome sight to behold.
And, for me, there are even more scenarios of negativity.
From the outside, it starts to look like you can push a certain kind of post at a certain kind of quality and garner a certain level of reward. In reality, you find that most of the perceived reward is already spent in buying the votes that make it up.
For people coming it, it suddenly becomes disheartening when you realise that, actually, no, what you see on the Trending page is not a reflection of the system. You're not going to be making $800 for going on holiday and whacking out a few pictures, you're not going to be hitting trending by making a Steem evangelical post... not without dumping in a whole load of investment at first.
Why should these investors looking for ROI care?
Fundamentally, they are invested in the ecosystem. If the ecosystem grows, then their ROI grows. However, if the big front page advertising to the outside world is a false promise full of trash, then it is more likely to harm the ecosystem in terms of users, adoption, bad word of mouth. Suddenly, that ROI can be under threat. Everyone here who is very much "well, let's just be hands off and let everything manage itself" could find the ecosystem they are invested in under threat.
All I can say is that I have been here for 2 years and not once have I made a any decision about my actions here based on the trending page.
There is so much opportunity here for the people that want to take it. Some will and some won't.
Personally, I don't go anywhere near it. There is nothing there for me. But it very much is the front page of the website for non-users.
It is the "this is the content you will read, these are the rewards you can get" advertisement to prospective users.
This is on what basis they function..
And this is how they pitch it...
Both quotes took from the same post of a bid bot owner.
If it was more lucrative to identify and upvote excellent content before it hit the quadratic curve to the moon, (collecting a share of 50% of the payout figure), than it was to delegate to bidbots; they'd all be retired tomorrow.
But that's none of my business.
I'm not a fan of the delegation function myself.
When I first joined, the idea of site as it was presented to me was that you would buy more STEEM to gain more influence.
This created a demand for STEEM and gave an incentive to power it up.
With delegation, however, what's the point of buying STEEM with your money when you can just accomplish the same thing by brown nosing the right people for delegation?
You mention that apps and projects such as dLive, dTube, etc. require delegation in order to function, but in the real world, you always invest and take a risk with your money in order to start something.
People save money, or go to a bank to take out a loan.
This risk motivates them to work hard in order to make a profit. Whenever you don't have skin in the game in capitalism, you don't work as hard as you can. This is a fact.
And with delegation, it's someone else's skin in the game, which is probably why none of these apps have really fulfilled their potential.
This is not to say there aren't good guys who have been delegated to, and who use their delegation responsibly because there actually are. But again: what's the incentive for these people to buy STEEM when they get all the benefits for free?
And why should we support a function that specifically disincentivizes the purchase of STEEM Power?
People can debate me.
But they don't. There were other methods for funding the projects - such as showing real development and improvements and receiving upvotes and donations. There is also the beneficiary option, where interface operators could charge a percentage of post rewards. The delegation to these projects is strictly for voting content in order to get people to use those interfaces. Without the chance of getting those upvotes from the delegated accounts, the interfaces wouldn't be used - which means that they aren't that appealing in the first place and probably shouldn't be receiving the delegations that mostly enrich the project developers without needing to deliver on promises.
Yep. There's no need to do anything when 1) it's not you assuming most of the financial risk and 2) you're receiving the rewards.
I would much rather see real developers create something actually wanted or actually useful/functional and aesthetically pleasing rather than see hideous, clunky, barely-functional interfaces mopping up rewards on the platform because STINC has diluted all other investor influence by delegating millions of SP to many different projects. And they don't appear to be slowing down.
So, crowd out actual buyers and holders of the token in favor of those who made no investments and don't deliver on anything other than the most basic of barely-functional interfaces. This is the current model for the platform's economic incentives. And we wonder why the place has become anti-social, why content discovery is so poor, and why the price only moves when Koreans are speculating or when the general crypto markets are moving.
Right now I'm buying Steem worth 125 ETH (+32k steem) and will transfer it to SP soon because I'm an investor and will delegate this to my favorite voting bot. :)
@joele I Like Your Style. Yes You can be an Investor on STEEM. #Steemwillmakeyourich
Delegate to few the same amount to compare ROI ;)
You can check @lavater delegations, he delegated to 7 bidbots with all same SP, and you can use this site to compare ROI https://www.steemdesk.com
Yup, Im doing it :) nasty boomerang, no negative ROI limit for vote buyers :s
For informational purpose: @tipu profit for 32000 SP
Yesterday 32000.0 STEEM POWER delegated or invested gave payout of:
25.237 SBD + 2.512 STEEM (44.15 USD), APR: 23.17% .
Delegation link: steemconnect - 32000.0 SP delegation to @tipu.
Please note the profit depends on STEEM price. The higher the STEEM price, the more SBD profit is being generated.That is a lot! Thank you for your comment. I would like to ask you to consider voting for our witness @blockbrothers.
Very insight full @exyle. Agree with you. Investors gain ROI with out having to produce or curate content. If they are making an above average rate of return; this one fact will lead to reinvestment and or additional investors joining Steem....Honestly if the services of the bots were not wanted. No one would be using them. But people are; with great effect.
Individuals, organizations, & companies try to use their resources as best as possible to accomplish their goals & or tasks. No one blames Pepsi or BMW because they buy commercial time during the Super Bowl. They have every right to to ad spend the way they wish. Funny how some frown down on those who use bots. It's an ad spend.
Thank you again. Have a lovely day.
Great post man and I agree with you.
Here's my opinion from a guy who uses the bots and even invests in them.
I consider them promotional tools and in no way think I'm going to make an ROI for purchasing one. If I get some extra views, readers, viewers and exposure...It's done it's job.
A big reason why these things even exist is because there is a market. We're told as minnows to come in here, produce good content and engage every day. We do that but rarely if ever get on the radars of the people that can help us with upvotes.
So instead of begging for votes, we purchase them to increase our name and get our content out there. Is it perfect? Absolutely not...But it arose because a need in the market place.
It's not fair to ask whales to sit around and upvote every minnow on the platform....So bots can do that plus give us exposure.
I love your solution too. It'll come from the blockchain and the more people see the potential here the creativity will shine through and things will get better.
For now, they are extremely useful for people just trying to get noticed and I know for myself, I'm willing to put in the work and have been here every day for 6 months now...I don't expect a THING from anyone here, so I'll use the tools that I can to help my account and name grow.
Well done .. good work
It is important to know the facts. Wonder what you do not know
Thanks for sharing this with us..
You know the bots for me as a new member on Steemit & Dtube dont bother me. Its just how it is cool once i get some steem going I can use them to help grow my influence here and spread my content further. h I am a content creator on a few platforms and it's always tough to get the ball rolling. It might not be as easy to earn rewards through creaton like it was a year ago but let's be honest growing a following and influence on Steem & Dtube here is potentially a lot easier than doing it on the already established mainstream platforms.
The key for content creators I believe is becoming part of the community, beyond just posting your own content to make money. How can you help others on the platform, you need to interact with other creators. Leave constructive comments like I am doing, You need to keep coming back and providing value in every action. Currently my votes are not worthy anything but I still take the time to curate and assign all my votes to posts that I think deserve it.
I however have the time to spend on the platform daily so I get if you cannot do that rather assign it and have it help someone.
But this doesn't mean you cannot succeed here without the use of Bots.
The number of connections I have made in the last 3 weeks by being involved in the comment section alone is amazing. I have started posting my first videos and yeah they are slow and not much happening in terms of upvotes. I know it will just take time for creators to notice my content is actually really good and it will spread.
Bots can help a lot but having an influencer like yourself (@ shoutout an account or resteem their content could have a much greater impact and it was all through actual human interaction. Building real relationships is kinda all I can do at the moment as i dont have the funds to pump into Bots. The content I create around dance and performing arts is already a self funded side project of mine.
Anyhows thanks again for a good video, I enjoy your insights and opinions.
Very interesting video @exyle. I like how you offer alternative unemotional analyses of these things.
Pointing out that the people investing in bots would be unlikely to suddenly become curators is certainly something I'd not considered and I agree. I see no reason why they would.
I think @oracle-D has already come up with a model for entrepreneurs to make more on their investment than they would on bid bots but they would need a project first to do it. At least that is my understanding. 😊
Thank you. Getting emotional in crypto in general often leads to mistakes in my experience. It's hard to stay unemotional with any crypto but especially on this blockchain because the emotion is right in your face every day. Believe me, I'm not immune to it, but I try not to act on it.
Well you do a very good job of it in your reports I feel @exyle and your positivity is always encouraging! 😊