Doug Casey and I Destroying Commies On Universal Income
Last week at the Nexus Conference I was on a panel with Doug Casey debating Universal Basic Income (UBI) with Flip Flipkowski and Ellen Brown, the President of the Public Banking Institute.
I have never actually looked into UBI much and assumed it was just a passing, bizarre fad. But it appears to be gaining a lot of traction with people who like to virtue signal and don’t understand economics.
You really just have to watch it for yourself to see and believe just how uninformed their positions are.
Ellen Brown, in particular, could barely raise an argument and turned aside most of my evidence and analysis on why it would be a disaster with comments like, “I don’t believe that” and “I disagree”... but saying nothing more as to why she disagreed.
To summarize my view, printing up massive amounts of money in order to give it to everyone in society would:
- Destroy the value of the currency almost immediately, and it would certainly lead into hyperinflation quite quickly
- Neither incentivize people to be productive nor motivate them to improve themselves, leading to an even worse off economy and a society full of unproductive, unskilled, lazy people.
This is fairly obvious to anyone who even has the most basic understanding of money, economics and human psychology.
But, claiming to have a few “studies” that show otherwise, they countered that people would be more productive if they were all just given enough money to live… and that printing up money does not devalue the currency.
When Doug and I brought up examples pf countries who had hyperinflated their currencies by printing too much, of which there are hundreds of examples, including Zimbabwe and Venezuela, most recently, these two claimed that it was other factors that caused the currencies to become worthless.
Aside from that, when I pressured them on how her idea of raising funds to pay for it all using a sales tax was theft and immoral she claimed it wasn’t a “tax”, it was “just trimming.”
It’d be laughable how uninformed and confused their ideas and logic are if it weren’t gaining so much wide appeal amongst the public who, in general, never has a problem with getting “free money.”
Again, you really have to see it to believe it. Here is the entire debate:
When pressured on any other way of moving forward, both Flip and Ellen had only one thing to say about why we need UBI: “Robots.”
According to them, robots will soon take all of our jobs and we’ll all be left starving.
I pointed out to Ellen that I’d always have a job for her, even if it is just polishing my shoes, finishing with, “At least then you’d finally do something productive with your life.”
It was a bit mean in retrospect, and as we walked out, she muttered to me, “I hate you.”
To which, both Doug and I responded that we didn’t “hate” them, we just think their ideas are uninformed and dangerous.
If this is the level of debate on the topic and it gains ground with the public and becomes a reality, then The Dollar Vigilante’s theme of preparing for the demise of the US dollar will be sped up dramatically… and we are already expecting it to happen in the next few years.
If you want to learn how to prepare for the collapse check out this free webinar with Max Wright. Max gives his outlook on how the collapse will occur and how you can prepare and even profit from it.
It will happen in the next few years or really any day now. And, if these socialists get their way it will occur even faster and be even more destructive than we can imagine.
I would argue that Universal Basic Income doesn't have to be based on force/coercion/theft. There are ways to accomplish the goal without having the state be the ones handling it.
If the issue/question is "how do we create a universal income/make sure everyone's basic needs are met?" and you immediately assume this could only be done via government, that's no different than a statist asking you who would build the roads without government. Anything that government can do, we can do better voluntarily, including UBI.
@dantheman wrote an excellent series on Universal Basic Income last year, that is well worth the read for anyone interested in economics, philosophy, and bettering the world. As you know, Dan is a staunch anarchist, and his approach to this issue doesn't break from that philosophy.
Unfortunately Dan's series wasn't packaged neatly into a flashy video and will likely not get much exposure. Have to admit, did not read all of it, so the links are handy to catch up later on.
Sad but true. He didn't use any ad hominem attacks, didn't make a video, and didn't try to do anything except lay the concepts out succinctly and clearly. One would hope that Steemit will be the place where that kind of content flourishes, and to some extent it does.
I wonder how he'd feel about someone summarizing his series and making it into a short video (or a couple short videos. @dan? I'd be happy to take up that mission :-)
@donchate, I'd highly recommend a read/re-read, it was some of the best stuff I've read since joining Steemit honestly.
Agreed, some of the best stuff out there. Do the vid!
Definitely needed. I think it's safe to say this will be done at some point.
As a supporter of some versions of "UBI" and opponent of most, I'd be very interested in a video making the ideas more vivid.
I remember reading Dans posts some time ago, but the amount of necessary semantic and theoretical preconditions makes most posts such as these a very lenghty and often confusing read.
Having some videos to accompany them would be of great help for a lot of people, including myself.
(You can skip the parts strawmanning capitalists vs socialists though, because that clearly doesn't help anyone)
Ya, they were definitely very in-depth and the sort of thing that the average person just tilts their head at in confusion, then closes and walks away. I'll add a video version of the series to my to-do list :-)
Cuba is a failed experiment of this basic income stuff, money come from someone and they will ask you for to do something at the end of the road if you want to mantain your "free" money (there is NOTHING FREE in this world, believe me)... for me, basic income is the first step on the way to dictadure ...
Theories are not reality sadly!
Cuba is a whole lot of things, you can't just say that UBI can't work because an authoritarian government implemented it and their version didn't work.
Between crypto-currencies (especially things like Steem, Grantcoin, and Faircoin), automation of manufacturing & food production, and the other technological advances opening up before us, there are SO many possibilities that are right on our doorstep that would have been truly impossible a decade or two ago.
Just looking at crypto-currencies, they are all created automatically through mining. What if a community created their own crypto-currency, and instead of a small % of people receiving all the newly mined coins, everyone using the currency got a little bit? Nobody is having anything taken from them, no extra inflation is occurring, and you now have a universal income (within that community).
I am just living in a real world. Just tell me what kind of government we have now in the world that can implement this in a fair way? Do you know how humans are? It si a very important point that people who like communism and socialism tend to forget in the fight for the utopy ... and who fight for an utopy is fighting for air my friend.
And this about the community I can not imagine so much. I can see how the BTC community or Steemit works and til now is like the real life, power is concentrated in a small % (I am just making a point here, I know they are differences) ... To be honest, I have hope but I am also afraid of the blockchain technology ... it is not just a descentralized tool but also, from my point of view, a perfect tool for to control.
This is very difficult (impossible) to implement in real life without a central control if is a big town, city or country. Government will always look for the taxes and so on (I supose you aretalking about now) ... they need to have control. You can make it work maybe in a community or something small like it. Maybe!
You're living in the past you mean. Any time you're basing arguments on the way things have been, the way governments do it, what we have/haven't tried before, you're arguing from the past. That's all out-dated and does not create real limitations on what we can do now, tomorrow, or next year. The only limitations we actually face are our own creativity and to what extent humans are willing to work together for something new.
I've never advocated for government to do anything at all, and neither do many others who have discussed UBI. Anything government can do, voluntary association can do better.
Naturally cooperative, good, and socially mindful. Aside from socio/psychopaths, humans don't want to compete with each other, take advantage of each other, or otherwise be against others, except where it has been instilled as "right", "normal", or "the only way" by a culture carefully designed by sociopaths. (1, 2, 3, 4)
That's the only way that any agreements or structures can work, as it is the only way that humans can actually function together. Cities/states/nations are all unnatural fictions, which only serve when a small group wants to keep a much larger group under their control. If you can't build connections with the people around you, then you will never create alternative systems together, your ability to cooperate is hindered, and you have an increased need for "middle men".
here's the guarantee that your system will not work; if you steal the value of my money to give it away to some loser; I will fucking shoot you and that loser
now you can insult me all you want ... the fact remains that I've just proven that your system will not work
anyway ... the only reason why you support UBI is because you don't give a shit about other people, that's why you want some system to take care for other people ... so, you don't have to do it
as in; you're so corrupt, you can't even be honest with yourself ...
Living in the past??? I am telling NOW ... you can not do it NOW! Btw, if I do not see how the past works I will make the same mistakes in the future ... kind of what happens all the time if I see history ... maybe because people think like you.
And you talk about dreaming? Where is the place you can do this NOW? Would love to see the voluntary people who really do not hink about they self. Altruism??? Yes maybe in the bible, someone call Jesus... fantasy land. You are hopping for an utopy and time pass and never comeback
And talking a bit of sense, but also no sense Even wild animals compete with each other... if you do not do you can not develop your self to the max you can ... it is not studies or writings done for a social scientis sitting at home or in a confortable lab of a capitalist country... it is what I have seen in real live in many countries for my work. Btw, iam not agree with adjectives or "right" or "wrong", I think it is very subjectiv and personal view.
I am agree 100%
Agree also, in Cuba, Brazil, Chile an many poor countries happens like that as far as I have seen (20 years ago and NOW) but because the government control the economy all this conections at the end are subject to this control.
PD: Who lives of dreams, dies of disappointments.
Anything we refer to as already happened, anything we've seen, is already in the past. This does not in any way limit our future. Humans are the most adaptable species on the planet, and getting better and better at it every day.
To argue that something cannot be because it hasn't been before, is simply wrong. Every new thing was "impossible" until somebody created it.
People repeat history because they do nothing but look at history and think that's the way it has to go, the only way it could be. The only people who have ever changed things are people who see an alternative that's never been tried and go for it, in spite of naysayers who can't believe in it until it's in front of them.
I am sorry that you live a reality where people are not cooperative and supportive of each other, that's really unfortunate. That is not the world that I live in, that's not the way that the 1000s of people across the world who I interact with every year are, but that's because it's not my belief, and our beliefs decide our experience.
This is a big true but we are not getting better in this .. well because of how the "society" teach the people mostly. I am agree with you on that ...
I do not say that. I do not say it is wrong, I just say it will not work because of how humans are ... and please, I have seen with my own eyes cooperatives working and as I told u before, just in small places ... bigger than that will change in a dictadure or will be communism, kind of the same. ... and well you say it ur self if in a world of billions of people you have a group of 1000s who help each other ...
Sadly Nikola Tesla tried a lot how reality works ... look, I am agree in a lot of points with you but life teach that better to have Freedom than Subsidy because this will become Slavery at the end ...
Edit: I took out a question ... not reason to do it
That's right.
There is no correct way to implement UBI, no matter what scheme you contrive, it will not work. People have to create ways to use the land and our resources and enrich themselves.
That is a sadly limiting and close-minded perspective to take. We, as free-thinking, collaborative humans, can come up with a "correct" way to do just about anything. Any limitation other than where it becomes violation of another free being is purely illusory.
Most people in favor of the UBI seem to plan on being on the Receiving end don't they? haha
Well... since it's universal, everyone is on the receiving end. So I'd go so far to say that all humans in favor of UBI are on the receiving end.
You mean you don't want to be the one to pay for it?
The many possible UBI structures that have been discussed in these comments and in the series by dantheman that I linked to above, all involve ways of setting up a UBI which do not include taking from one to give to another.
If there is a calculated inflation (like that of BTC, ETH, etc), and that calculation or some portion of it (so miners can still be rewarded for their energy) is split amongst everyone involved, then you have a UBI. No theft required.
My friend @akaskew is creating a permaculture farm design which will be easily repeatable, and one of the facets is that a portion of all profits will be divided amongst everyone in the nearby community (who choose to sign up for the program). Another option which does not involve theft.
Even in a state model (which I never advocate), many countries have nationalized one or more of their natural resources. If a country had, say, nationalized oil, they could take all the profits of that oil and split it among their citizens (as Saudia Arabia does in small ways, paying for college for males; or as Las Vegas does with casino profits). [Again, I never support a state option, just giving more examples.]
Personally, I know better than to think that money is any sort of limiting factor on my life, health, or happiness. Food is grown by sun, water, and soil, it doesn't come from money. Shelter is built by wood, clay, human energy, it doesn't come from money.
I am in favor of any changes (voluntary & non-violent) which will help the masses come to the realization that scarcity is an illusion, that we live in a reality of absolute abundance. I see UBI as one possible stepping stone towards that. Everyone knowing that they have enough to survive, to tend to their basic physical needs, allows them to let go of this fear that has been conditioned into them, stop being slaves in order to survive, and begin to focus on their actual purposes for being here.
Scarcity is what gives things value. If there is no scarcity, then you need no UBI to buy things with, because they will be as abundant and free as air! duh. Everything is scarce and finite, that's why you want to distribute the means to buy things. Even time is scarce, we only have so many years of our life, and working hours in a day. Sure the world is big. But we must take our scarce labor, to develop those abundant resources into usable products (food, materials, etc.). Do you really sit outside and wait for the sun and soil to grow food for you? It takes a lot of labor and tools just to grow your own food. Money is what makes peaceful trade possible and it provides a measure of productive value and efficiency (prices). Without money, it would take you months to build a home, and you won't find any insulation, electronics, HVAC, or TV's to forage in the woods. Your goal for people sounds like something for nothing, not for me, I'll continue to earn my way thank you. If you are worried about people just donate, don't cop out ask that someone else do it.
Hmmmm, makes me wonder if a crypto could be used to implement UBI.
I haven't thought through the details at all but Steemit seems to be working on some pretty magical principles, so maybe there's a system that could create and donate value to the world independent of a government or central bank.
The obvious first issue is inflation....
There is already one: GrantCoin designed for this exact purpose, and I would say that Steemit definitely borders on the topic too. Between getting a few steem for free when you join, and getting curation rewards just for clicking 10 times a day, that's pretty close to a universal basic income.
Inflation is already part of every currency, whether fiat or crypto. The issue becomes uncontrolled/unstable inflation. With STEEM, that inflation is split between witnesses, curators, and authors, effectively limiting it's effect on the system by spreading it as evenly & widely as possibly.
If a crypto worked on any of the same basic mining/creation/inflation principles as BTC and the like, but say the miners got 25% and the other 75% is split evenly amongst all holders, then you haven't created any more inflation, but you have created a universal income. Just one though, I'm sure there are lots of folks already writing up the code for these things.
dan the man ... the guy who did absolutely nothing when @berniesanders took over steemit and destroyed it ... the guy who created the fundamental flaws in steemit ... the guy who refused to defend women when they were being assaulted on his platform ... sure, he must have all the answers; look at steemit; no problems whatsoever, right?
"This is fairly obvious to anyone who even has the most basic understanding of money, economics and human psychology."
Having said that, what is your suggestion for fixing the potential of mass-unemployment-leading-to-social-unrest that automation is already bringing in?
Is there a better option than printing some UBI (perhaps, somehow forcing the inflation on the elite, heh I can dream)?
I remain unconvinced.
Less monetary manipulation, crony protectionist regulation, taxation, trade restriction, and general economic intervention would be a good start. It's not that something must be done, but rather that too many misguided things are being done.
That would certainly be a great check-list...
I have no idea how we manage to get there though.
Stop trying to use politics as a solution. Withdraw consent from the system that operates entirely though coercion and plunder.
OK, let me rephrase: I have no idea how to get the average person (Kardashian watcher, Selfie-poster on Facebook) to even care, let along change anything in their life.
If you've tried "spreading the good word", you probably already know what I mean.
UBI is gaining a lot of ground with many countries and economists. Being tried in one of the smaller countries in Europe.
Apparently it isn't going so well.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/20/opinion/finland-universal-basic-income.html?mcubz=1
Haha, its funny that the socialists use the robots as an argument:
Robots coming up in a free market:
Not all the jobs will be replaced in once, this will happen in a longer period. When the first robots come in, the salary will go down slightly. Few smartest take action and go look / learn for another job (job that still has demand in the market). Furthermore students will choose education for this job less, because they know there is no future. This will stabilize the salary temporarily, but finally it will go down again when more robots enter the market. Now the salaries go down more there will be more people shifting job and there will be no more new supply because the schools stop teaching this profession. In a free market the people will naturally relocate their job because of market forces and this will increase the overall wealth because robots produce for us.
Robots coming up in a socialist market:
Once the first robots come in the salary have to go down naturally and some will loose their job, but the government will add to the salary and pay the ones that lost their jobs to stay at home and being unemployed. This will increase the cost of the social security and taxes have to be raised. Now robots become even cheaper compare to humans and even more people will loose their job. Because they get money every month they will not / slowly look for other opportunities. Finally all human beings are being replaced by robots and only a few will get another job. Because the government have to pay a lot for unemployment they have to tax others even more, this will make other professions more vulnerable to being replaced by robots, because they compete less because the extra tax expenses.
Another thing that is always annoying me is the fact that people are always complaining that the USD buys less for Americans caused by inflation. I don't give a f#ck about the americans, they robbed the world for 100 years already. My problem is that ALL other civilians of the world have to exchange more of their local currency to buy the same amount of oil, steel, coal ect.(because it is based in USD) , so their currency will be inflated. This is the reason poor countries can never get out of their poverty and more rich countries work their ass of for the american dream.
Bring the robots, I will own them, I will own their energy and I will own their intellectual property rights, and I will enjoy my time at home with my family as we grow 80% of our food, produce our own clean water and energy and use my dividends from the robot labor force to travel the world and continue my education.
Exactly. The point of using machines is to Decrease our labor and Increase production.
If robots do the work and pay the taxes then basic income can be funded without taking property from any human. This is actually one of the ideas I endorse as workable once technology gets to that point.
I will agrue back at you on this one bud. Much money is spent trying to controll the homeless but if UBI was a reality much money would be saved. Also many people worldwide are underpaid, UBI would fix that. Or does dollar vigilante still believe the top one percent actually need all that money? No distribute it to the people. We need a major shift of wealth for UBI. if your against it then you are no anarchist or vigilante. Just another rich bitch, ignorant.
So, we're ignorant if we don't advocate theft based on income level?
No your ignorant cause universal income in no way advocates theft, mr.plunder
You said that the top 1% don't need their money and that it should be redistributed; obviously via theft (taxes). It will have to be Taken from someone.
Why treat an abstraction as an empircal bit!? If corporations have the same rights as 'people' then if you take from the top one percent of 'persons' i.e. corporations that have the same rights as people and also real life people treated as 'corporate beings', then the job of UBI would have to be to destroy that paradigm completely! You would stop treating corporations as people and people as corporations! First step to UBI baby! Why would it be considered theft if it was in fact a renegotiation of terms.
"Taking" even from companies, against their will, is theft. They are only "Corporations" for tax and regulatory reasons. The government only lays out a few options for organizing a business: Sole Proprietorship, Partnership, Limited Liability Company, and Corporation. So companies being identified and organized into corporations is a result of government regulation. Would there be big companies anyway? Probably Yes, and they would still be serving your needs better than any politician.
Companies have no will, except the will the humans give them. Going by the book for tax and regulatory reasons seems pretty uh, un-anarchy. When the companies in question use such practices as de-regulation, and terms such as development to expand their empire. Many poor countries have little to no regulations and these corps and govt's stomp all over them, pay them little and pollute their land. If people had UBI they would have much greater agency and not have to be forced to work for slave wages while the big companies ruin the land with mining, oil extraction, mono culture farming etc. I say don't let the government own your flesh and tax your body. Undue the birth certificate, who would want to be part of a country - corporation that oppresses their own people. "Take a step outside the planet, and take a good look at who you are."
If you don't think the government should be able to tax, how will your UBI be funded?
Doug is the man
subscribe to his mailing, then try to unsubscribe; doug is a piece of shit
I'm guessing you're not a big fan of Grantcoin then?
@dollarvigilante I don't uderstand one thing, If and I say If robots can produce everything we need to live for free, why would Ellen work for you? Every studies show the same thing, yes technology creat jobs, but they take away more jobs then they create. This is a problem that we have to deal in the future.
Quite common in stattistics to forgot that people could change their job.
There would be people who were doing some task that would be replaced by a robot. And then they could be fired.
There would be people that weren't working before that could start doing by designing or maintaining those robots. Like first-time workers, young people.
But there could also be, and it always happens, that there is people who were working when robots are introduced into their jobs, but they decide to find another existing job who still is in need to be done by humans.
you have never read 1 single book about the industrial revolution; 100% for sure, because if you did ... you wouldn't spew this bullshit