Some good points there. Wasn't sure what to expect at first, lol.
I sort of agree with your first point, labels can be divisive. But at the same time there's a few labels I'm comfortable associating with. Veganism basically just means trying to reduce harm to other animals within reason, and humans are animals as well technically according to science so it's sort of just a philosophy of peace with other beings and respect within reason.
But I understand how certain people have given the label a bad reputation, that tends to happen with words. Many people think religion is a bad word, even though it basically just means a set of beliefs about existence according to my reading of the definitions.. I think we all have some beliefs about life.. Though some people hate religion so much, they want nothing to do with it. Similar to veganism and other ideas.
So.. I think it's good to avoid the label at first because you might scare people off, though.. In the end I don't really think it's such a bad word at all, it's one of the few words I'm willing to associate with in regards to my beliefs about the world.
Your second argument was "waste" which I sort of agree with. many other "vegans" would agree as well, that it's better not to waste, though.. It's a diverse population of peoples and not easy to put into a box like most groups of people. It's easy to stereotype whole groups of people, but often it is inaccurate to do so. Not always, but.. A lot of the times a lot of innocent people get unfairly wrapped up in those broad brush absolute statements about certain groups.
Third point was plant sentience. I agree the science isn't confirmed, though for me it seems pretty overwhelming that at the very least if there is some kind of sentience that it's far lower than even the animal kingdom which is why they are rooted in place and can't move thus no need for a big brain that can make lots of decisions and look at itself and reflect.
And.. Even if plants did have sentience which I don't think they do.. Intelligence yes, sentience no. But if they did.. You still gotta fed animals plants first, so more plants die by eating animal products. Plus a lot of water waste and many other things I'm sure you're aware of, so veganism is sort of a "minimalist" approach of do the least amount of damage within reason.
Even if we can't reduce all of our impact and some amount of death of sentient life is necessary for us to live, it would be wise I think to try to reduce the impact and damage we do on other beings as much as we can without harming ourselves in the process.
Thanks for the thoughtful video, I'm going to have to listen in more often!
OH... PS it reminded me of this Tales From The Dark Side episode where the lady gets glasses that make the fruits start talking to her and she ends up sewing her mouth shut so she won't eat them, lol... Also I don't really believe in breatharian or sun gazing, but I suppose it's possible.. I think we need some food like the other animals do, though who knows.. I admit I don't know much in the grand scheme of things. Anyways.. Peace!
Thanks for the thoughtful comment. Sorry it took me so long to notice it, I don't come on here very much now.
I agree that labels don't need to be divisive. But, unfortunately I think we are far too immature to handle them appropriately, for the most part. I had meant to say that I think the label vegan could have been a good one, but because the popular opinion of vegans has been soured, at this point I don't see much value in holding onto it.
I see your point about plant sentience and other animals eating plants, but other animals also eat other animals, and we have opted against that. When I observe the world, I do not feel as I know many vegans do, that all life is equally important and that all species should be protected the same. I do believe that humans are the most significant of all species, but I think we have used as an excuse to dominate all others and shape the world as we see fit. But, I recognize that signiifcant, intelligence and philosophical prowess as a burden of responsibility. If we have the abilit to think the deepest, and to make the biggest impact on the world, then I feel it is our duty to protect all other species- including plant life. I think it is difficult now because they have fucked with our food to the extent that it seems difficult to survive on fruit alone unless you can afford the best there is and have the convenience of acquiring it frequently. But, I do think that in an ideal world we would preserve as much life as possible, and that would include not eating vegetables that we don't need to eat. That's in an ideal world though, and we have a long fucking way to go before we could ever even begin constructing that.
I don't have the data to watch that video right now, but I am intrigued and will be checking it out as soon as I'm able to, so thanks for the share.
You're welcome, and no worries. I can't keep up with the comments or other peoples pages and content sometimes, but.. When I see good or smart peoples or those who provoke thought in what I consider to be helpful ways I like to take the time and make an extra effort if possible!
" I had meant to say that I think the label vegan could have been a good one, but because the popular opinion of vegans has been soured, at this point I don't see much value in holding onto it."
Can you give me another word as example to help illustrate this point? I'm having a difficult time understanding.. Why you want to go with public popularity so to speak as opposed to the meaning of the words themselves? I spend time going out of my way sometimes to try to explain to people that certain words aren't as bad as they think.. Like religion is one.. SO many people hate that word these days, but it's really not bad in my opinion and I think almost everyone has a belief system about life even if it's not called "this religion" or "that religion".
Another word is judge.. A lot of people think judge is negative, but.. I think we all judge all the time, even where to put our next step.. So.. Just cause a lot of people don't like a word, doesn't make me stop using it. It makes me want to point out to them that the word doesn't mean what they think it does.
I don't necessarily think all life needs to be protected or treated the same, I just would hope humans can learn to evolve to respect life more, a lot more. Even the insects. Although I do highly agree with what you said about us being more intelligent giving us the responsibility to be more moral.. That in my opinion is what society is.. Might as well live out in the wild if you don't want any order. But as long as we group together I think we should try to treat each other better as well, plus my intuition tells me this as well, my heart.. Not just my mind.
It's true the people in power have messed up the food supply, but you can buy organic or locally and that helps or grow it yourself. And even with the shitty depleted GMO food, I think you can still survive better than on animal stuff, but.. I admit.. Some people may be different. Like..In a genetic sort of way as opposed to just mental.
And yes.. We have a long fucking way to go.
And ah.. The video is really short and small! But.. Yeah it's a glimpse into that interesting idea.
Talk to you later if you are around later! Peace.
I am so behind you on the word judge. I have said it many time when someone says, "don't judge me," "why not?" If we do not judge one another we will never be able to determine who we want to spend time with. It's just prejudice that's the problem.
The reason I think the label out to be abandoned is because it doesn't matter what the definition of a word is. The meaning of words change over time because how people use them, and what the overall consensus is towards the word, is how it is used.
If I said to you now, "I like those drinks, they're cool." You would probably think I meant cool as in awesome, when I could have meant cool as in temperature. Which at one point, was the only meaning for the word.
So it doesn't matter if you turn up in a place and say, hey, let me talk to you about why I'm a vegan. Your definition may be sound, but the one that the majority hold in their heads is the one that will be embraced. And people tend to hold onto emotions more than they do information. So when they hear the word vegan, they do not think of "a person who does not consume or purchase animal products," they think, "Oh like that wanker I saw on youtube or that prick who accosted me outside Mackie D's."
Just my thoughts though. I do know that many can get past the label, but I fear too many have a strong negative association with the word at this point, which makes it unproductive for any type of animal activism.
I'm not so sure I agree with you about religion. It seems to be the biggest reason why people are confused about what is right and wrong, so I see it as an obstacle to the word of the Creator, which I believe is written in our hearts, but society forces us to suppress our sense of morality so that we can be good consumers, rather than good people.
I tend to agree. However I'm hesitant to say prejudice is any worse than judging itself as to me the problem is more about unfair judgments.
Whether you judge actively or decide that you want to judge something into the future a certain way (prejudice) I think it should be a fair judgment. To the degree that is possible with our limited human understandings.
For example.. If I were to say I'm prejudiced against rape and murder, I think that's a pretty fair thing to say. I don't think I need to look at those things every single time to make a "current judgment", I can decide that it's worth thinking that way into the future and make it a sort of "unconscious habit" or "prejudice". I do feel like it's important to re look at and question even your most deeply held beliefs, however.. Every time I ask myself if rape and murder are bad, I get the same answer. So I doubt those things will ever change and they are probably healthy prejudices to have. And in regards to murder I mean that strictly in the legal sense, not in a "killing in self defense" sort of manner, or even accidental which would be manslaughter.
The reason I think the label out to be abandoned is because it doesn't matter what the definition of a word is. The meaning of words change over time because how people use them, and what the overall consensus is towards the word, is how it is used.
You could say that about any word.
Just my thoughts though. I do know that many can get past the label, but I fear too many have a strong negative association with the word at this point, which makes it unproductive for any type of animal activism.
I don't think it makes it unproductive, unless you come up against people who just can't handle the label, then you can say it in different ways. However.. I don't think we need to abandon any words just cause there's a bad stereotype among the public. You can choose to be craftier and more careful in your approach, though.. Just cause people misunderstand something shouldn't be a reason to abandon it, it should be a reason to help them understand what it really truly means.
Otherwise, you're sort of letting their ignorance and misunderstanding of the subject rob you and them of a valuable symbol and form of expression.
I'm not so sure I agree with you about religion. It seems to be the biggest reason why people are confused about what is right and wrong, so I see it as an obstacle to the word of the Creator, which I believe is written in our hearts, but society forces us to suppress our sense of morality so that we can be good consumers, rather than good people.
I really like what you said about the word of creator being written in our hearts. :) However..I don't think anyone really knows what's going on here or why we are here if there is a reason we are here, so.. There's a lot of need in my opinion for religion, in fact I think it's unavoidable and perhaps this is one reason there's a "binding" or "holding back" associated with the definition. Cause we are limited in our ability to understand, so we can only find different "chains" so to speak. All our belief system is indeed a prison, though.. Without it, how could life even work? Much like our body is a prison, but without it, how could life work? In this case, I'd suggest to try to find the religion with the least amount of chains! Though I doubt it's possible to ever find a belief system that has none.
Cheers bud! I enjoy talking with you. You're very smart and articulate and able to convey your thoughts well.
I'm not clear on how prejudice can ever be fair. If you are judging someone based on no information, or less information than needed, then to me that can never be acceptable, and is 99 times out of 100 going to be inaccurate.
I don't think you can be prejudice against something like rape and murder, because you already know intimately what it is about rape and about murder that you don't like it, and therefore it is a fair judgement because you can say I am against it because it is morally wrong.
It's not really the same as being prejudice against, say black people, because one stole your bike once. That doesn't mean that all black people are going to steal your bike. But, you can, if you know someone raped someone, without prejudice, understand that this person did wrong.
I'm with you on beliefs and chains though. But, I have given this a lot of thought and wonder if those chains are somewhat necessary. Life would be utter chaos if we had genuinely no beliefs. Without a belief that when you drop something it will fall to the floor, simply looking out into the world would be quite unsettling, for we'd have no sense of what is going to happen next. Beliefs bring a sense of order to the world. But, I do wonder what it would be like to have none at all, just for a moment. For literally everything to be a possibility.
Sometimes when I meditate, I try to let go of all my preconceived notions of the world. I look at the ceiling and try to forget that I expect it to stay there. Then when I start to think it may fall on top of me, I let go of that too and try to open my mind to the possibility that it may instead rise up, or change colour, or turn into a swarm of starlings and start swimming through the water that might randomly fill the room. lol.
It sounds entirely nuts but it often allows me to slip into a trance like state so much quicker.
In regards to religion I do think it can be useful, for some. But I think most use it as an excuse to stop asking questions. As you said, life is the greatest mystery. Where did we come from? Why are we here? These are questions that burden every one of us. But, they are uncomfortable questions because they are so damn hard to answer. So, people adopt beliefs, doctrines or scientific "facts" that answer those questions for them, and negate the uncomfortable feeling of not knowing. It's like giving up on a crossword because you've become frustrated that you cannot solve it.
But, I am only a few books into the Bible, so perhaps my opinion will change upon completion. I certainly feel at the moment though, that there is nothing you can observe, read or learn in this world that you cannot find within yourself. And perhaps the answers to those profound questions are also within. I am sure a lot of religions speak to this idea also.
No need to thank me. I appreciate the conversation.
Some good points there. Wasn't sure what to expect at first, lol.
I sort of agree with your first point, labels can be divisive. But at the same time there's a few labels I'm comfortable associating with. Veganism basically just means trying to reduce harm to other animals within reason, and humans are animals as well technically according to science so it's sort of just a philosophy of peace with other beings and respect within reason.
But I understand how certain people have given the label a bad reputation, that tends to happen with words. Many people think religion is a bad word, even though it basically just means a set of beliefs about existence according to my reading of the definitions.. I think we all have some beliefs about life.. Though some people hate religion so much, they want nothing to do with it. Similar to veganism and other ideas.
So.. I think it's good to avoid the label at first because you might scare people off, though.. In the end I don't really think it's such a bad word at all, it's one of the few words I'm willing to associate with in regards to my beliefs about the world.
Your second argument was "waste" which I sort of agree with. many other "vegans" would agree as well, that it's better not to waste, though.. It's a diverse population of peoples and not easy to put into a box like most groups of people. It's easy to stereotype whole groups of people, but often it is inaccurate to do so. Not always, but.. A lot of the times a lot of innocent people get unfairly wrapped up in those broad brush absolute statements about certain groups.
Third point was plant sentience. I agree the science isn't confirmed, though for me it seems pretty overwhelming that at the very least if there is some kind of sentience that it's far lower than even the animal kingdom which is why they are rooted in place and can't move thus no need for a big brain that can make lots of decisions and look at itself and reflect.
And.. Even if plants did have sentience which I don't think they do.. Intelligence yes, sentience no. But if they did.. You still gotta fed animals plants first, so more plants die by eating animal products. Plus a lot of water waste and many other things I'm sure you're aware of, so veganism is sort of a "minimalist" approach of do the least amount of damage within reason.
Even if we can't reduce all of our impact and some amount of death of sentient life is necessary for us to live, it would be wise I think to try to reduce the impact and damage we do on other beings as much as we can without harming ourselves in the process.
Thanks for the thoughtful video, I'm going to have to listen in more often!
OH... PS it reminded me of this Tales From The Dark Side episode where the lady gets glasses that make the fruits start talking to her and she ends up sewing her mouth shut so she won't eat them, lol... Also I don't really believe in breatharian or sun gazing, but I suppose it's possible.. I think we need some food like the other animals do, though who knows.. I admit I don't know much in the grand scheme of things. Anyways.. Peace!
Thanks for the thoughtful comment. Sorry it took me so long to notice it, I don't come on here very much now.
I agree that labels don't need to be divisive. But, unfortunately I think we are far too immature to handle them appropriately, for the most part. I had meant to say that I think the label vegan could have been a good one, but because the popular opinion of vegans has been soured, at this point I don't see much value in holding onto it.
I see your point about plant sentience and other animals eating plants, but other animals also eat other animals, and we have opted against that. When I observe the world, I do not feel as I know many vegans do, that all life is equally important and that all species should be protected the same. I do believe that humans are the most significant of all species, but I think we have used as an excuse to dominate all others and shape the world as we see fit. But, I recognize that signiifcant, intelligence and philosophical prowess as a burden of responsibility. If we have the abilit to think the deepest, and to make the biggest impact on the world, then I feel it is our duty to protect all other species- including plant life. I think it is difficult now because they have fucked with our food to the extent that it seems difficult to survive on fruit alone unless you can afford the best there is and have the convenience of acquiring it frequently. But, I do think that in an ideal world we would preserve as much life as possible, and that would include not eating vegetables that we don't need to eat. That's in an ideal world though, and we have a long fucking way to go before we could ever even begin constructing that.
I don't have the data to watch that video right now, but I am intrigued and will be checking it out as soon as I'm able to, so thanks for the share.
You're welcome, and no worries. I can't keep up with the comments or other peoples pages and content sometimes, but.. When I see good or smart peoples or those who provoke thought in what I consider to be helpful ways I like to take the time and make an extra effort if possible!
" I had meant to say that I think the label vegan could have been a good one, but because the popular opinion of vegans has been soured, at this point I don't see much value in holding onto it."
Can you give me another word as example to help illustrate this point? I'm having a difficult time understanding.. Why you want to go with public popularity so to speak as opposed to the meaning of the words themselves? I spend time going out of my way sometimes to try to explain to people that certain words aren't as bad as they think.. Like religion is one.. SO many people hate that word these days, but it's really not bad in my opinion and I think almost everyone has a belief system about life even if it's not called "this religion" or "that religion".
Another word is judge.. A lot of people think judge is negative, but.. I think we all judge all the time, even where to put our next step.. So.. Just cause a lot of people don't like a word, doesn't make me stop using it. It makes me want to point out to them that the word doesn't mean what they think it does.
I don't necessarily think all life needs to be protected or treated the same, I just would hope humans can learn to evolve to respect life more, a lot more. Even the insects. Although I do highly agree with what you said about us being more intelligent giving us the responsibility to be more moral.. That in my opinion is what society is.. Might as well live out in the wild if you don't want any order. But as long as we group together I think we should try to treat each other better as well, plus my intuition tells me this as well, my heart.. Not just my mind.
It's true the people in power have messed up the food supply, but you can buy organic or locally and that helps or grow it yourself. And even with the shitty depleted GMO food, I think you can still survive better than on animal stuff, but.. I admit.. Some people may be different. Like..In a genetic sort of way as opposed to just mental.
And yes.. We have a long fucking way to go.
And ah.. The video is really short and small! But.. Yeah it's a glimpse into that interesting idea.
Talk to you later if you are around later! Peace.
I am so behind you on the word judge. I have said it many time when someone says, "don't judge me," "why not?" If we do not judge one another we will never be able to determine who we want to spend time with. It's just prejudice that's the problem.
The reason I think the label out to be abandoned is because it doesn't matter what the definition of a word is. The meaning of words change over time because how people use them, and what the overall consensus is towards the word, is how it is used.
If I said to you now, "I like those drinks, they're cool." You would probably think I meant cool as in awesome, when I could have meant cool as in temperature. Which at one point, was the only meaning for the word.
So it doesn't matter if you turn up in a place and say, hey, let me talk to you about why I'm a vegan. Your definition may be sound, but the one that the majority hold in their heads is the one that will be embraced. And people tend to hold onto emotions more than they do information. So when they hear the word vegan, they do not think of "a person who does not consume or purchase animal products," they think, "Oh like that wanker I saw on youtube or that prick who accosted me outside Mackie D's."
Just my thoughts though. I do know that many can get past the label, but I fear too many have a strong negative association with the word at this point, which makes it unproductive for any type of animal activism.
I'm not so sure I agree with you about religion. It seems to be the biggest reason why people are confused about what is right and wrong, so I see it as an obstacle to the word of the Creator, which I believe is written in our hearts, but society forces us to suppress our sense of morality so that we can be good consumers, rather than good people.
I tend to agree. However I'm hesitant to say prejudice is any worse than judging itself as to me the problem is more about unfair judgments.
Whether you judge actively or decide that you want to judge something into the future a certain way (prejudice) I think it should be a fair judgment. To the degree that is possible with our limited human understandings.
For example.. If I were to say I'm prejudiced against rape and murder, I think that's a pretty fair thing to say. I don't think I need to look at those things every single time to make a "current judgment", I can decide that it's worth thinking that way into the future and make it a sort of "unconscious habit" or "prejudice". I do feel like it's important to re look at and question even your most deeply held beliefs, however.. Every time I ask myself if rape and murder are bad, I get the same answer. So I doubt those things will ever change and they are probably healthy prejudices to have. And in regards to murder I mean that strictly in the legal sense, not in a "killing in self defense" sort of manner, or even accidental which would be manslaughter.
You could say that about any word.
I don't think it makes it unproductive, unless you come up against people who just can't handle the label, then you can say it in different ways. However.. I don't think we need to abandon any words just cause there's a bad stereotype among the public. You can choose to be craftier and more careful in your approach, though.. Just cause people misunderstand something shouldn't be a reason to abandon it, it should be a reason to help them understand what it really truly means.
Otherwise, you're sort of letting their ignorance and misunderstanding of the subject rob you and them of a valuable symbol and form of expression.
I really like what you said about the word of creator being written in our hearts. :) However..I don't think anyone really knows what's going on here or why we are here if there is a reason we are here, so.. There's a lot of need in my opinion for religion, in fact I think it's unavoidable and perhaps this is one reason there's a "binding" or "holding back" associated with the definition. Cause we are limited in our ability to understand, so we can only find different "chains" so to speak. All our belief system is indeed a prison, though.. Without it, how could life even work? Much like our body is a prison, but without it, how could life work? In this case, I'd suggest to try to find the religion with the least amount of chains! Though I doubt it's possible to ever find a belief system that has none.
Cheers bud! I enjoy talking with you. You're very smart and articulate and able to convey your thoughts well.
I'm not clear on how prejudice can ever be fair. If you are judging someone based on no information, or less information than needed, then to me that can never be acceptable, and is 99 times out of 100 going to be inaccurate.
I don't think you can be prejudice against something like rape and murder, because you already know intimately what it is about rape and about murder that you don't like it, and therefore it is a fair judgement because you can say I am against it because it is morally wrong.
It's not really the same as being prejudice against, say black people, because one stole your bike once. That doesn't mean that all black people are going to steal your bike. But, you can, if you know someone raped someone, without prejudice, understand that this person did wrong.
I'm with you on beliefs and chains though. But, I have given this a lot of thought and wonder if those chains are somewhat necessary. Life would be utter chaos if we had genuinely no beliefs. Without a belief that when you drop something it will fall to the floor, simply looking out into the world would be quite unsettling, for we'd have no sense of what is going to happen next. Beliefs bring a sense of order to the world. But, I do wonder what it would be like to have none at all, just for a moment. For literally everything to be a possibility.
Sometimes when I meditate, I try to let go of all my preconceived notions of the world. I look at the ceiling and try to forget that I expect it to stay there. Then when I start to think it may fall on top of me, I let go of that too and try to open my mind to the possibility that it may instead rise up, or change colour, or turn into a swarm of starlings and start swimming through the water that might randomly fill the room. lol.
It sounds entirely nuts but it often allows me to slip into a trance like state so much quicker.
In regards to religion I do think it can be useful, for some. But I think most use it as an excuse to stop asking questions. As you said, life is the greatest mystery. Where did we come from? Why are we here? These are questions that burden every one of us. But, they are uncomfortable questions because they are so damn hard to answer. So, people adopt beliefs, doctrines or scientific "facts" that answer those questions for them, and negate the uncomfortable feeling of not knowing. It's like giving up on a crossword because you've become frustrated that you cannot solve it.
But, I am only a few books into the Bible, so perhaps my opinion will change upon completion. I certainly feel at the moment though, that there is nothing you can observe, read or learn in this world that you cannot find within yourself. And perhaps the answers to those profound questions are also within. I am sure a lot of religions speak to this idea also.
No need to thank me. I appreciate the conversation.
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