BAD POETRY IS TAKING OVER STEEMIT
May I be really honest here?
(real question)
I'm wincing as I write this as I know it will ruffle some (probably many) feathers, but I have to be true to my word to call us out so we can get better, as I have talked about in other articles such as this one.
I'm so sorry for what I'm about to say. Really. Big breath.
But.. the poetry on here getting upvoted (for the most part, not always) is.. so...
...
........
.................bad.
(There, I said it). Like really bad. Wince-worthy and painful to anyone who values the written word and the tradition of literature in the world.
I went over to the poetry section tonight to try to get to know some fellow writers as that is a goal of mine here, but I couldn't find anything that I could authentically comment on, without just being really critical and telling them I winced through the whole thing (so obviously I didn't comment). And these were the ones getting sometimes 100s of upvotes.
None of this stuff would ever have a remote chance to get published--and rightly so. How is it doing so well here?
It's not jealous at all (because trust me, you couldn't pay me to put my name on stuff like that), but it is an authentic experience of dismay--wide-eyed, bewildered, confused dismay.
(actual dismay)
I know it seems unkind to say it, but I just feel more and more that it needs to be said. Our tastes on the whole as a society have become horrendous. It turns my stomach.
I know I am officially "no one" and there isn't really any specific reason you should listen to me. I'm not published as a poet, with some minor exceptions, as poetry hasn't been a focus of mine until recently--but I am a skilled singer-songwriter with an emphasis on lyrical content, and have quite a few credentials there in terms of my professional work (I have written with Grammy-winning writers, travelled all over for my work, worked with a record label for a while, have won awards for my writing, etc., and, more than all of that, people who I respect in turn value and authentically respect my work, which is probably the most valuable credential to me).
Anyways, credentials or not, someone has to say it.
Perhaps you are one of those people who likes those poems, or even upvoted them. Or maybe even authored them. To be clear, I don't think this makes you some kind of bad person. (Contrary to popular belief, we can actually distinguish those things, even though much of the world has trouble understanding that.) But I really don't understand how we have come to so devalue quality work that those are the kinds of works receiving attention here.
I honestly thought Steemit was better than that! And I don't mean that cruelly or sarcastically: I mean it with utter sincerity. I thought I would find better quality work here than I've seen elsewhere. It's hard to see that that is not the case, on the whole.
Just because you throw some sentimental words together that express something you feel deeply doesn't make it poetry or art. It just makes it sentimental words thrown together.
(actual face palm)
How did we get here culturally? How did we completely lose a sense of what is actually worthy of our approbation?
I'm at a loss. What's the conversation we need to have to remedy this? Is there even one we can have? I'm really at a loss when I see what I saw tonight. Is it even worth saying anything, or trying to start a conversation, especially at the risk of likely taking a lot of flack for it and maybe hurting some people who feel they are giving their best?
Now, to be clear for my new readers: I'm not trying to take the wind out of the sails of budding artists. I'm not trying to be some kind of annoying elitist. But I have to be true to my word to call out dross when I see it, and I am seeing it disappointingly often here on Steemit--a community which I firmly believe is much better and more intelligent than that from what I've seen in other areas. To my mind, every budding writer deserves the dignity of being challenged so they can actually become the artists they are capable of becoming. An English teacher of mine who was not unkind but was willing to be critical of my writing was crucial for me developing as a writer.
I'm not looking for established Dylans and Eliots and Frosts and Dickinsons. Really. I'm just looking for REAL poetry that has the at least flickering quality of brilliance and enchantment that is the hallmark of good creative writing. Such as these:
https://steemit.com/poetry/@artedellavita/once-upon-you-a-poem
https://steemit.com/story/@prufarchy/to-the-lover-original
https://steemit.com/story/@prufarchy/stir-in-the-air-original
(please go and upvote these ones if you get what I'm trying to say in all of this)
I'll say it again: just writing a journal entry and adding random spacing does not make it a poem. It makes it a journal entry with awkward spacing that is now for some reason being shared publicly.
I'm very open to a discussion about this. We NEED to talk about it and at least just start somewhere. I want Steemit to be a place that curates and celebrates authentically great art, and I believe we can get there.
(wincing as I press post and sending love to all of the potentially wounded artistic souls)
(actual wincing)
Xx, Kay
If you're interested in staying involved in the unfolding of this conversation, don't forget to follow @kayclarity. I write about art, life, the world on Steemit, and post my own poetry and music.
Is there such a thing as "Bad Poetry"? Very subjective to what the audience wants to hear. Why don't you judge mine. https://steemit.com/poetry/@oceancoinz/poem-loneliness
Yes. There are objective measurements for good and bad writing.
Never said writing, poetry comes from your heart not from grammatical errors.
I agree with kayclarity. It is not as subjective as you might think. Read Bourdieu's "Distinction - a social critique of the judgement of taste". Matters for any kind of art.
Great read btw. Most definitely you can agree, again its my own opinion. Different people like different poetry. What one person might hate, another person might love.
I understand that spam can come into play here in any blog, however, write a piece of poetry about death and see how many people love it, so it's very subjective.
Only Sith Lords deal in absolutes, lol
If all you do is talk about judging poetry, but can you write a piece of art yourself. Some people will read about how to write poetry because they took some college class, but they have never experienced themselves.
Ultimately, bashing other steemit users is not going to get you anywhere in this environment. But, some people thrive off negativity. ;)
Cheers.
You are right with the sith...a social theory like Bourdieus is of course just based on an average evaluation. So I cannot give an example on poem or writing amd my english is not the best, but I try to show my point of view somehow. I am a musician. And as such, you are focussing similar issues. F.ex. if you play Cohens Hallelujah on the piano you got millions of clicks on youtube and the girls like it (I alos do so sometimes, because I know). But the skills that you need to do so are 1% of what you need to play lets say a fugue of Bach. But reputation is the other way around. This absolutely has nothing to do with any individual point of view . It's exactly the distinction that Bourdieu is talking about (but here to the disadvantage of the one who played Bach). Shows where the most people are at, almost like a revelation. Problem is, that culture can not grow if people with influence support this "Cohen gets all, Bach almost nothing" -thing. Becoming a highest and best self (like classical humanists and today some post-modern philosophers want you to and I agree on them) is totally corrupted if there is no change in supporting real quality, real skills, real art and real individualism. This is not for trashing anyone, but supporting those, that want to go forward. Cohens Hallelujah played on a wedding since everyone saw the priest singing it on Youtube? Sucks! It's second verse is about divorce! But doesn't matter for anyone because it is such a lovely "romantic" piece of music. Sucks even if those people don't want to die Wagners Liebestod. Or like we have got here in germany, we've got a clothes company called outfittery. They advertise clothes in main TV channels and they tell you that they are gathering together clothes individually for you (and you buy it and get a nice parcel)... But if you put them clothes on you go outside and you are looking like any other person. And people are satisfied with that. The ones that are ahead should not be those who sell the hot clothes from three years ago to cohen-minded people and make huge profits to dress them all the same by let them believe that's individual and a must have. Its not! Its shit! Playing Yiruma "River flows in you" or Cohens Hallelujah... it's shit, skills of three weeks piano playing needed. Instead of making profit out of such trend the people that are ahead should tell the others: Thats even not 1% of potential you can get from art. Listen to Bach, not to Cohen.
LOL, nice, would love to hear your music. BTW, I saw your comment about Sheldon on the Big Bang theory, so funny I thought the same.
Cheers mate.
I've got some steemed here, no Bach yet;) Feel free to check it out! Cheers
Will do. Followed ya.
I now played some Bach on the cello, if you like, have a listen:)
https://steemit.com/openmic/@senzenfrenz/steemit-open-mic-week-42-bach-solosuite-g-major-for-violoncello-prelude
There is definitely such a thing as bad poetry. Definitely. Just because we live in a world that has become accustomed to poor quality art doesn't mean it isn't poor quality. It just means lot of people like poor quality. Just because lots of people eat McDonald's doesn't make it good food.
Are you really asking? I'm assuming you mostly just want to prove a point and get people to check out your work? But I'll answer, although my goal isn't particular critique, but rather a more evaluative culture on here where we take time to actually think about the quality of the things we support with a view to the culture we desire to create.
In honesty: your poem is okay. It's not the worst, and there are some good elements to it, but I think you could grow as a writer and do a lot better. I say that with honesty and without any venom.
Glad you responded. As a community steemit is learning and this blog presents a great opportunity for to teach the ways of the force when it comes to creating the perfect poem. I think it would be wonderful to take the pain and anguish that you have towards these poems you dislike and create a tutorial on how to create the perfect poem. You should add an example of your own literary masterpiece using your own rules and creativity.
What do you think? Anyways, I hope your endeavors on steemit are met well beyond your expectations.
Cheers.
Ocean
Thanks for your gracious response--this is what I love about Steemit: that conversations like this are possible without devolving into name-calling and dramarama. I don't necessarily believe someone has to be able to produce a masterpiece in order to critique, but in time I will be definitely sharing some more of my work, as well as offering some basic needs for a good poem in the form of writing tips.
Thanks for the idea - hope I get to actually doing that at some point.
Take care. Xx, Kay
No problem. You have a great weekend and take care also.
On a re-read, there are aspects of it I appreciate more fully now--some interesting word ideas and pairings. I think you've got a good instinct as a writer and will only get better if you work at it. That's what I'm doing, too.
It'll just be a lot stronger and more fully communicate what you want to say if you avoid some of the cliches.
LMAO calling out some Stemians... i'd be interested in the poetry you can create? please do
The thing is, I don't even expect professional quality--just actual poetry. I'm not saying I'm the best poet ever.. just that I think I do make actual poetry and want others who are doing the same to get the upvotes and encouragement from the community.. :).
It's a scary endeavour! lol
I have a couple of up --not my absolutely best work, but I think worth reading. They are a way back.. and I will be posting more.
sounds good :)
I think I can add to this subject... okay, I will start by saying I'm not a poet, I'm involved in visual art. And I will state that I don't fundamentally disagree. However, I do have some questions. are not the metrics by which you measure the quality of a poem the subjective interpretations of individuals who created rules for what a good poem is? If so, what is it that allows these individuals qualified to make that distinction? It seems to me that style and form go through motions throughout history. These shifts in mass perception of art are expansive, and impossible to trace the catalyst in most cases. Currently, shifts in the lexicon, and an eroding public education system (in the US at least) may account for the interest in a less complex form of poetry, one which is more accessible... even understood by appealing to instinctual emotions instead of intellectual ones.
Also, I would say that people often like what they are told to like. I see this most radically in the CIA funding of Jackson pollock as a means of countering Russian realism, and establishing the US as a cultural center during the Cold War.
Van gough also illustrates this, hated in his life time, beloved after. Was his art good or bad? Depends on when you were alive.
Is Kanye a good lyricist? Does he write his own lyrics?
But perhaps the only problem with labeling something as good or bad is a semantic one. How does an objective qualifier get attached to a subjective piece of art? How do you define good and bad? Does it have an ethical implication? Perhaps it's more accurate to say I like this, or I don't, for so and so reason.
Anyway, thank you for bringing up this subject, it's something I think about a lot! (Don't get me started on implied, perceived, and intrinsic meaning...) I hope that this topic will continue to be openly discussed here, I enjoyed reading all the comments! I will be following you for more!
Hahah I like your facial expressions :)
I completely understand you, same is in the drawing section. So many bad sketches get upvoted. A bit of disappointment. I hope that things will change.
I think we need to really start to have a conversation about it on here on the regular if we want to see things change a bit! I honestly think Steemit, especially because it is relatively young as a site and phenomenon, could become a quality-control place over time and actually become a bit cutting edge in terms of holding up excellent work. Am I just a dreamer? Going to follow you because I want to keep in touch with you about this!
I must say that I agree. I have seen some truly horrible poems on here, usually they look as if the person just spit it on the page, sort of like:
Rage
Sitting alone
Agony
For you
I long
And wait
In my room
Shivering
Okay that was a made up example but not far from what I'm talking about. I'll never put someone's writing down or even critique it. I'm no professional. I have two poems on here. One was for a poetry dice contest so it was just a quick write for fun, and the other is one I wrote years ago and thought it was nice enough to share, but not so close to my heart that I would be devastated if someone ripped it off. I feel so bad though that I can't bring myself to upvote when I find a blogger's poetry really awful. I don't feel being phony nice is doing them any favors. I will say to each their own, but I definitely know what you mean.
I laughed out loud. You captured it.. and.. frankly? If you posted that you'd probably get a decent amount of upvotes! That's your ticket right there.
I'm not really interested in critiquing specific poems either; very few people do well in response to unsolicited criticism. I'm just hoping to open up a conversation so more people can be more evaluative about what they support, and more intentional about seeking out the good quality posts.
Don't upvote the dross! I'm with you in it--I won't be unkind, but I won't ever let myself upvote something I think is terrible. It's not right somehow.
Also.. gonna follow because I want to try to build a bit of a community of serious writers and thinkers on here. Xx, Kay
Thanks! Following you too. I like that we're brave enough to speak your mind.
Holy shite @renodakota, that poem in RAD! ahahaha... see, just goes to prove a point too. ;)
Lol! Thanks! I mean, if you're just starting, I'll give it a pass but....
That's a good policy. I always find if I can't get past two lines that's probably not a good sign.
This has inspired me to post some poetry. Give me 10 minutes!
lol! Well, keep in mind that the cheesier you make it the better you'll do, if you want to make a quick buck.
@kayclarity - I agree with you. I am no poet or even connoisseur of poetry but some people are posting some lines, calling them poetry and getting them upvoted with bots as well as the sympathetic senior Steemians. I do understand poetic license and the need to abandon the basic form of language sometimes, in favor of freedom of expression but at least let the sentence make SENSE people!! I salute you for noticing it and raising your voice. *Steemit is a platform of intellectuals as far as I can feel it so far. Let it not be turned into a money making ATM machine by such people! Upvoted
I am trying to put some effort into my passion. I could have tried to just post some of my wildlife pictures (or even downloaded some sensational shots from internet) and made numerous posts to try and make money. However, I am trying to focus on providing some quality read and visual info to Steemians. I do not know if you agree but if you want to take a look, I would welcome your comments on my latest blogs. Thanks
Apparently I'm already following you.. which means when I checked I thought you were doing good work! I only do authentic follows! Keep up the fab comments, too, friend! xx
Thank you for your appreciation. Do try to let me know through your comments if you like anything in my blogs and keep up your good work. Have a great day friend.
Thank you so much for your great comment! Yes. There is room for artistic license, but boring, tired cliches? And random of bits of trying to sound "deep" and "smart"? Yuck yuck yuck yuck yuck!
I will definitely take a look! xx
I have had similar experiences with both poetry and fiction, though I have had more success finding good writers in the latter category. I can only speculate about the reasons why certain posts become popular. I suppose it is hard to know why a poem appeals to a person, let alone many people. Does it speak to them in some way? What if there is no clear meaning? To steal a line from the most interesting man in the world... I don't write poetry often, but when I am more satisfied with my work when I apply a few principles. For example, I like to structure it around two ideas that can contrast with and augment each other. A good example is an image overlayed with some sentiment that I can relate to that image. Follow this relationship and it may lead to some startling conclusions. The effect is more powerful than simply explaining the concept because of the power of poetry to seduce the other "senses" of our mind that want rhythm and sights and surprise. These goals provide structure for me. It is not a question of whether good poetry is made up of one kind of meter or another. It is not a matter of whether we are using allusion or alliteration or masucline versus feminine rhyms. These are tools, and the quality of a building is not measured by the tools or even the architectural features used. A terrible poem can still have perfect execution of all kinds of classical elements. It can be well constructed and empty and unaffecting. However, one can hardly make a lasting or pleasing structure without using the right tool for the job. I guess that is what it comes down to for me. I look at the core idea and ask, what tools will give the most impact to my idea? People get hung up on being judged or how subjective poetry may be. But there is no doubt that certain techniques have certain effects and that poetry is no different than anything else humans have done, in that there are always things to learn and master. Technical perfection may not be the judge of good poetry, but why wouldn't you want to learn the techniques available to bring your ideas to their maximum potential?
Ah this comment is AMAZING. I'm too rushed to give you a deserving response, but thank you so much for your contribution! Super helpful! I hope lots of people read this! Keep in touch, k? Xx, Kay
I appreciate the sentiment! Thanks! Yes I will be around. I've even followed you :-). I was thinking about writing a longer post about this and maybe I will when I find the right words. I guess if I were to put it more concisely.... People look at the standards that have been set and say, why should I be judged by those? Why should I write for anyone else's pleasure but my own? They are right. You shouldn't write for anyone else if you don't want to. And that is where the so called "rules" come in, and by the way I don't call them rules. It is like the boxer who trains everyday and wins the title, but ultimately says I didn't do this to win adulation and awards. A lot of other people can do that too. No, I did this for my own reasons to become my own personal best, because I am the only person on this earth who can do that.
::cackle::
I try and remain a bit positive when people are trying to get in the flow and let go. That said, I have always been the one sitting on the sidelines wondering how my stuff is so overlooked while others that seem less polished make the gains and get the praise -- yet, I remain upbeat about the process as that seems to be the point (in the end, imo).
There is a large amount of very difficult art to process in the world, this is a fact. I've come to think that the people making it (by enlarge) are somehow connected to a clique of sorts.
I studied oil painting at university and what I was always told was it's the dealers and curators that make the stars, that actual ability and talent can have little to do with it -- it sure looks that way to me sometimes.
As a person who has contributed a fair bit of poetry, I am some what offended to fall under the wince-worthy group of poets on Steemit atleast by your standards. I won't say any more because your opinion is of value, to me and to many others.
Thanks for chiming in. I have no desire to offend anyone in particular, and in some ways, it's more painful for me than someone I might offend, as I know it can be very hard to hear. That's not my goal, although I knew in posting that it may be an unfortunate side effect. What I actually want is to start a conversation about these things so everyone can start to learn and grow as artists and writers. Most people submitting poems likely have some kind of good writer's intuition--it is just something that needs developing. Everyone needs a good teacher. Literally everyone. I think we also all benefit from reading the really good poems that have stood the test of time, and trying to understand what it is about them that makes them good, and then working hard to apply some of those principles.