RE: Mental Illness & Shamanic Experiences (podcast/video)
Well, my stronger criticisms of psychiatry come a bit later in the interview haha. But I don't think either of us would say it's complete bullshit.
If it was just that they weren't valued as much, that would be fine. But some are made into pariahs for thinking differently. It's something that's swept under the carpet, so when someone has one of these unusual experiences, nobody around them knows how to behave or how to help. I have to wonder if there can be a middle ground between saying to people in this situation "we're going to take you to someone who can guide you," and "you're sick and we're going to take you to someone who can fix you." I knew intuitively that I didn't need to be fixed, and I needed something which the society I lived in didn't know how to offer.
Yes, I definitely think Carl Jung was a kind of shaman. He does write about certain mystical experiences, such as his meetings with Philemon - things which would make people pigeonhole him as crazy today.
I find it unusual that you'd question the mental state of someone who didn't believe in psychiatry. If you pin someone as crazy, it does make it easy to dismiss their arguments. I don't know what you've read, but a dismissal of psychiatry alone doesn't make someone mad, nor does it mean their criticisms are entirely invalid. If they claim to know with 100% certainty that psychiatry is an Illuminati plot because of a code they read on the bottom of a Coca Cola can, then they might need support.
It is
notall BS no. (wrote that wrong initially) Most in the field take a guess at treatment. Only read about one that actually looks at the brain. Practically every other field looks at something of the physical body where as this profession doesn't? That seems rather odd...Love the ideas and works of Carl Jung.
One section of psychiatry? Or one psychiatrist? Do you have some more info about it?
You are thinking of the "mind-body" problem. No one can solve this. it's an existential issue that psychiatric researchers do actually seek to solve.
Have you been to a psychiatrist? They ask questions while studying your body posture, your affect, voice tone; psychomotor state. Many other things aside from behaviour.
In Canada there are a lot of initiatives to fight stigma against mental illness. I'm sure they're similar in other countries. The programs focus on awareness of how common it is to experience at least some symptom, whether anxiety or mild depression. It's something digestible to people whatever they believe. The link between shamanism those of us into philosophical side of it thins might see the value in exploring, but it's not as easy to translate to people who don't think in thse terms.
one fallacy I see with the mental illness as spiritual experience, is that in times when this was the case it actually was an adaptive trait to the human environment.** Now the world has changed, we cant even imagine what life was like in tribal cultures (for the most part, I realize they still exist) and psychotic symptoms are maladaptive. It is the best thing for someone that they are taken to a mental health centre. Where I live they are calm environments, and aren't cold and institutional places, tho i realize in some countries they are.
Regarding questioning peoples sanity (mental state was my term);
Often people who write off psychiatry completely have a mental health problem, of varying severity. The irony is that they don't want to admit that they have a problem and are self-stigmatizing, so claim that it is psychiatry which seeks to label people as 'abnormal'. When really, no one knows how normal mental health struggles are more than psychiatric professionals. They see the worst of it. And there is danger in romanticizing it as something that could be treated without medication.
Do you have to take meds regularly now?
** edit: consider that our thoughts were once attributed to deities and that had spawned religion
So you're saying that, in tribal cultures, these sorts of experiences were beneficial and helpful to society, and to the individual. But these days, people who have these sorts of symptoms are maladapted to a modern society. It's difficult for me to accept that, knowing that I have adapted to society, and depending on who you ask, some would say I've adapted better than most.
As we discussed in the video, it seems that these types of experiences can give people perspective beyond the culture that they live in. Is there any culture that you can imagine which wouldn't benefit from greater perspective? The world has changed, but it hasn't changed so much that people aren't limited by their culture. As long as people are limited by culture, shamans will be necessary. In fact, the more that people claim that perspective outside of their culture isn't necessary - the more that they claim that their culture hasn't limited them - the more shamans are necessary.
Okay, I understand that's your opinion. You haven't addressed what I said. You're asserting that they have problems, but you're not providing any evidence. As I said, even if they are crazy, even if they are absolutely off-the-wall bonkers, and even if they are wrong about psychiatry as a whole, that doesn't necessarily mean their criticisms are inaccurate.
That may be. I think you are missing a key distinction here. Psychiatrists see these mental states as illnesses to be treated. Yes, they may see it as "normal" (i.e. common) for people to be in these states, but it's unlikely for them to wonder: What can this individual gain from this experience? They may see the person as undergoing an experience which is common, but they will very rarely see the experience as either: normal, healthy, or beneficial.
If it's true, then it's not romanticising, is it?
Negative, I have never taken any psychotropic psychiatric medications.
Here's a like to my previous article on the subject, if you'd like to read it: https://steemit.com/philosophy/@churdtzu/mental-illness-how-and-what-to-learn-from-your-mind-breaking
It wasn't my intent to imply that I took issue with your perspective. I will have to write a post on the issue as I've lots to say. but I will make a note to address your comment in this thread more thoroughly later today.
I'm not exactly sure what you're referring to, but okay, I await your response.