Are women who dress provocatively responsible for unwanted attention, or should men learn to control themselves? The @ecotrain question of the week
Oh Men! I am one, and I know what it means to be a man and have all the feelings and attributes that men have. I have desires, fantasies, and will often look at any beautiful woman (or man for that matter) with appreciation or admiration.. and yes sometimes even lust! Even though I am a man, not all men are the same, and some are more driven by their hormones desires and instincts than others. Personally speaking I have experienced being relatively unaffected by a beautiful woman for most of my young adulthood, as well as the primal feelings and urges of a more mature man. Having experienced both sides of the fence, it puts me me in a good place to share a little about this very important question!
Question. Why do many religions seek to prevent women from 'dressing up' too much? Muslims, Orthodox Jews, Amish, and Indian to name a few are so careful and restrictive about how women dress and present themselves. Is this to protect the women, the men, or both? Whilst I don't really appreciate or value forcing women to dress down, especially in the case of things like face covering, I can see why this is done, and the value of keeping modesty in public areas. These days especially, we live in a very multicultural world, and we have to learn to respect and live together. In general my opinion on very provocative dress is that there is a time and a place for everything.
Here's the thing... many men are unable to control themselves. This is even more apparent when I visit certain countries like Israel and Egypt for example. I will never forget when i once passed through the Egypt border with my women friends, and saw the way in which the police looked at them. They were clearly and without any shame undressing these women in their minds and doing who knows what with them. It was not nice to see and I dont think ive ever looked at a women that way. These men were out of control a far as I'm concerned. Who to blame for that? I’m not even sure.. maybe the culture, maybe the oppression, maybe its just the genetics of being middle eastern? The same can really be said for most guys that are also European. I think the main difference is that men have learned to temper it a bit, and have a bit less of an intensity or desire when seeing a beautiful woman. Nevertheless, guys seems to be guys wherever I go, and its fair to say that most guys are totally preoccupied with beautiful women. Its only when you are a guy that you really get an insight into this world. Put a few men together and let a stunning woman walk past and see what happens! All eyes follow, and the guys will always mention it to each other afterwards in some kind of comment.. Whilst men react to different degrees to this kind of stimulus, its far to say that most men are wired in the same way. They have this kind of instinct to seduce a woman... they have a carnal desire to procreate and have sex with different women, even if they are married. It's fair to say that MOST men cheat (may women too!), and whether or not they are married, they are always on the look out for someone else. I know this because of ALL the men i have ever known, VERY VERY VERY few have been faithful.. For the record, I am one of them!
So the question needs to be asked.. can we realistically expect men to control their behaviour toward women or not? I think the simple answer is Absolutely, but not always. Look, here is the thing.. Women who REALLY make an effort to look stereotypically beautiful, dress up in incredible sexy and revealing clothes, anoint themselves with perfumes containing pheromones, and make themselves appear to be wanting attention are sending out a message. It is one thing to be presentable and pretty, but its quite another thing to dress to impress and even be flirtatious. Whilst i personally DON'T think it is OK for men to be rude, shout out obscene comments, or otherwise interfere with a woman who hasn’t asked for it, I do understand why it happens. I would love to say that men should learn to control themselves, however i don't really think that is going to work! It's sad but true that most men are out of control, and that our society doesn’t really have a problem with men shouting out after a pretty lady on the street. I’m sure many women smile and welcome it, because that is why many women dress up in the first place.. but equally many women DON'T want this kind of attention and just want to look good for themselves and their partner.. and want to get respect. With that said, im sure in countries like Japan you are rarely going to see the kind of behaviour that a construction worker from the UK would exhibit for example. There are cultural differences and big differences in behaviour around the world. .. and that makes this question even harder to answer.
Therefore, I would have to say that a woman should understand When and Where it is OK to dress provocatively. If you are going out clubbing and want to impress and yes Maybe meet a nice guy then i would say that IS the time and place for a women to go all out and display herself however she desires. In that case men also should learn to respect that, and control themselves. At least in theory, but alcohol sure makes that a hard thing to really expect. On the other hand, if a woman is just going out to go shopping, or is going to work, then she needs to be aware of her impact on others. I'm not sure it is totally fair to REALLY dress up to the nines and then expect all men to ignore her! As hard as it to say, it is asking for trouble. It may not be their fault exactly, but I do wonder if we can really expect anything different? I think when a woman really understands her effects on men, then she can learn when it is appropriate to be dressed provocatively or not.
So in conclusion, I would say we have to find a balance. Men do need to learn to control themselves, and to a large extent many do.. It's just that one stupid guy in a large group who can cause problems, and so whilst 99% of men may well have their actions and carnal desires under control, that one guy who doesn’t sure stands out and can make life a misery for many women... and that guy is probably too far gone for us to expect him to change.. at least without significant social pressure.. That is the crazy thing about life, it only takes one idiot to ruin everything for us all! So the balance lies with men to correct each other a bit and put that pressure on each other, but also for women to dress appropriately for any given situation. It does SHOck me when i see VERY young girls dressed up like they are 10 or 20 years older than they really are, and that is the worst thing because they look the part, but they are not mature enough to really know what they are doing or how to handle it.
The final part of this question is RESPONSIBILITY! Who is responsible for unwanted attention? Well im going to have to be Very honest again and say women are! That doesn’t make the attention OK, or acceptable, but it is how things work. Men are responsible for their own actions, but if we are honest and pragmatic we can understand that they are also biological beings who have evolved to notice seduction and respond to it. When a peacock does her dance, the male comes forward. When a cat is on heat and releases her pheromones and sings her cat like song, the males cats all come running. So likewise when a woman does the same we can not really be surprised that the men also come forward. Our culture is based around finding partners and sexual experiences, and flirting and trying to seduce a woman successfully is a part of life. Thats is what makes this question SO hard, because women DO want attention, and Do want to be seduced, but only by the right guy! What to do, I wish I had an answer that protected women more WHATEVER they choose to do, but really and truly I think we have accept the consequences of our action and not deny human nature at the same time. Just to be VERY clear, this opinion does not include abuse, groping or any kind of physical contact which in my opinion is totally unacceptable and that responsibility rests on the shoulders of men.
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Why would a women dress provocatively if she didn't want the attention?
to feel good about herself, and get Looks and attention and the kind of attention she does want..
So she does want attention? She wants looks but only from specific people? Lol 😂
yes, ;-) in an ideal world!!! haha
Lmao!
this assumes that women's presentations always have something to do with men.
I live in a very rare subculture due to the woman I married. I chose my wife because of her modesty, expressed in every facet of her character including dress. She has a vivacious spirit, a friendly disposition, and can look a man in the eye and sometimes be sassy, but she understands true humility. Her spiritual directors and mentors throughout her life have modeled meekness and ego-death, having come to the place of surrender that they no longer need to impress anyone, defend themselves, nor do they need anything. If a woman sits down with a short skirt and uncrosses her legs, the carpet pattern on the floor seems to suddenly capture every man's attention. She is obviously ignorant of what she is doing, and should not be taken advantage of because of her naivete. However, most women in the community take great attention to their wardrobe and see to it that their chests, thighs, and shoulders are not paraded publicly for all to enjoy. the body is sacred and should be treated and viewed as sacred.
that being said, there are men who make a great loud stink about modesty, creating strict rules for how long dresses must be, how a woman's hair must be done, etc. Fundamentalist Christians, Jews and Muslims seem to share the opinion that if they could just wrap the female body in enough layers it would cure their own hearts of lust. How could that possibly be?! who is responsible for your heart except for you? I find that the ones who are going around measuring skirts are often found with their hands up them. This is an intolerable hypocrisy!
I intend to teach my daughters to respect their sacred vessels and to treat their bodies with respect, and to teach my sons that their hearts are their own responsibility. My sons will learn respect for women and all living things. I will teach my children about their individual rights, and about consent. there are so many nuanced aspects to human sexuality and power dynamics, many of which are not even intentionally taught, but there are plenty of ways to create a healthy culture for another generation. I would like to avoid both shame and lust- both of which are unhealthy attachments to form instead of essence.
very nicely said sir! I think repression has its dark side.. and as you say it is the worst kind of hypocrisy!
your children are Very lucky to have such a good Dad.. bless!
As a guy, I sort of understanding where your coming from, but as you say, we're all different. To understand if a woman is being provocative or not, first off, you need to understand what a woman thinks is provocative - and you could only understand that, if you understood what they think a man finds attractive, assuming we are speaking hetorsexual here :) .... hence the crack whore in the photo.
Sexuality and sexual provocation is the most subtle of things. To really know the answer to your question, you would have to know how your hormones are dressed rather than the person that contains them.
Personally for me its back and shoulder muscles - show me a healthy Trapezius or Deltoid any day :) Some 'women' that I have met, find things like 'wrists', shoulders and 5 day beard growth attractive.
Its always seemed to me that people over estimate the power of presentation, and underestimate the power of those unseen forces that lay beneath the skin.
You can certainly make an impression with dress, and you can shock or make a statement, but if you believe that's going to get you laid, then that would be a rather unfortunate mindset.
Rather than associate someones dress with their sexual prowess or vibrance, we could alternatively consider it a gauge of just how desperate someone has become.
Anyway, very brave of you to post this Alex :) U crazy man !
Thank you for this piece @ecoalex and the topic. It is quite a good one and all i can say is your clothing and how you dress says a lot about you. It is a fact that no one can deny. So if you want to be treated like a lady and with respect then dress like one and vice versa.
there are doctors who could help with that...
Women do that too...
As for the responsibility and dressing appropriately... Who determines what is appropriate? You said it your self that we are multicultural in big cities now. When I dress up in the morning, do I need to think about all the different men my clothes may offend or attract? Some men are attracted by sneakers, SNEAKERS!!! Should I stop wearing sneakers? Some men are attracted by tight clothes, ok so only baggy clothes from now on. No cleavage and no skirts, only pants and shirts to my neck. Fine.. Oh, wait. I dont think so :)
The problem is that we are all subjective and what you or your friend find attractive is not what some other man will like. How are we to please you all? I have an idea, screw pleasing you. Learn to control yourself or go see a doctor. Not you, you are lovely honey, but men who can not control themselves should seek professional help. I wonder if men are careful what they wear, they are not. I wonder why that is...
And as for the animal world... All around animal kingdom, males are seducing females, not the other way around. Males have pretty shiny feathers, horns and are showing off in front of ladies. Why is it different for humans is beyond me. We should put men in sparkles, I vote for that :D
Thank you for a wonderful read, you made some good points and it shows that you really tried to look at this from every angle. I respect your message that we should know and understand before we judge, that is always an important thing to know. Much love 💚
thanks for your comment..
when i wrote about men making comments about a pretty woman i realise women also do that too.. i have seen it.. But,.. the whole Vibe of it when men do it is quite different. They say the most gross things and really like too much!!
I was careful to word this question using the word provocative.. so to answer your question about whether you should have to think about whether you carry sneakers or not.. i would say not.. one thing i didnt mention in the post, which i think i could have.. is that its also about the way you carry yourself and present yourself.. if you are not being flirtatcious and really not dressed up to impress then that is a different thing.. women shouldn't, in theory, have to overthink this... but in practice.. we have to just realise how things work.. also it all depends on the person and what they can tollerate and deal with. Some women can just brush off some stupid guy, whereas another may get quite upset.. so generalising isnt really fair to this answer..
p.s id wear eye glitter <3
Both. Women dress provocatively in order to get attention. Otherwise, there is no reason for the various provocative clothes to be put on. They could wear things like mean, the cover up and aren't so tight.
They do dress in low cut shirts showing cleavage because it draws attention, otherwise they could dress in another way that doesn't show cleavage. As men don't dress in the same way with low cut shirts because there is no sexually provocative purpose for it.
Men need to be able to control themselves from raping women or assaulting them, but the provocative dressing stimulates attention and attraction. If women didn't want the attention or attraction, they could change how they dress and be more "conservative" or "modest" in exposing their sexualized attributes. The whole purpose of dressing provocatively is to draw attention.
i agree.. i think my main point is about the kind of guy who is just really inappropriate or pushing the boundaries too far.. which happens a lot.. theres a difference between just looking and admiring, and someone not taking a hint and being a real pain in the ass!
thanks for your inputs krnel!
I'm sorry, but I disagree, and a lot. The problem is that they've been told it's okay to follow their instincts and primal desires, because that's their make up. However, it's because they haven't been raised to control themselves - it's just another symptom of a hedonistic, ego driven, desire culture that allows for men to have these freedoms and not woman and then say 'it's in their nature'. It's just an excuse. You can't compare human beings to animals - we have the ability to reason and have self control. There's never, ever any excuse for unwanted attention especially when the message is loud and clear. Sure, woman might want attention - but they never WANT men to behave in a way that is harmful i.e rape etc. I guess it depends what you're classifying as unwanted attention.
To be honest, it's a cultural thing and it's an identification thing and this seems to have crossed cultures in the favour of men too. Men are socialised to demand, woman to take it. It's everywhere and all pervasive in the media. If men could control themselves and tell their boys how to handle their desires - and i'm saying mothers too have this responsiblity - then maybe we wouldnt have this question in the first place. It's not just woman who are responsible, it's men, it's the culture, it's all of us.
yeah .. i can see what you are saying.. just look at some asian cultures,, like i think Japan, where the men would not dream of acting out like they do in many parts of the world .. they have learned respect and self control.. with some trade off's maybe..
i think a lot of this has to do with sexual repression, and unfulfilled desire. I think your average joe doesn't know how to make love to his woman, and just knows how to shag.. so his sex life is stagnant and boring.. and his wife or partner all too familiar.. and then, boom. . he's out of control .. because the whole culture is out of balance .. and that is also what it is.. a symptom of a very sick culture.. a very ill society indeed..
just to also clarify. . when i wrote this i used the words "unwanted attention".. I think it was a good choice of words, and to me meant none physical attention. .. let's say at worst a guy pinching your ass and getting all in your personal space.. and not backing off after you tell him No. Generally though it meant things like wolf whistling, saying inappropriate things, or just being an ass..
My Personal feeling is also that this is about a cultural thing. We live in ever mixed societies.. and have to ask ourselves to what extent we are willing to compromise to show our respect for others that we co exist with. I saw a facebook post the other week from an israeli girl who was really horrified that she took flack and was asked to cover up whilst wearing fairly revealing clothing on the train.. The train was shared by both religious and non-religious jews and others.. and the religious jews, especially the men find it very offensive and difficult to witness. So my feeling was that she could have just taken a shawl or something to look a little less enticing, and taken it off when out of an enclosed public space.. this might be a good QOTW in itself.. "To what extent should we compromise our lifestyle or personal choices to satisfy the need of others" .. or something!
I guess for woman, we can't help but extend 'unwanted attention' into it's worst possible outcome, because that's very real for us. It's more a problem with the question and how it can be interpreted - I just posted mine, and it was tricky to say the least.
I do agree it's cultural, and I wrote as much on mine too. I'm offended by girls who wear revealing things on trains - I mean, come on - !! I hate it when girls wear bikinis into shops (my husband doesn't) - it's just that we don't need to see that, thanks, in that situation! I definitely don't buy that 'I should wear what i want, where I want, in any situation' because that's just not polite. Mind you, why can men go topless and not woman? See, it's a big, big topic. But absolutely, we should show respect for others.
As for unfulfilled desires, I do think it's more about NOT KNOWING HOW TO HANDLE our desires. Why should every desire be filled? Shouldn't we be looking at how to handle the range of human emotions we have and how to deal with them? If your sexual desire isn't fulfilled in a relationshiop, that doesn't mean you have an excuse to have an affair (sorry, I know this is personal, and tbh, I've been guilty in my youth too, and I'd like to argue I didn't know better, and I suffered guilt for a long time because of it - and J's Dad did the same, which affected his kids for a long time too) - maybe it should be about looking at the range of emotions that led you to want to act on that primal desire? And talk it through with one's partner/call it off before doing something even more to cause damage?
It's definitely a cultural thing, and that means WE ALL HAVE RESPONSIBILITY to do something about it. Many woman will argue it's all harmless - but I would argue they haven't been the ones subject to abuse and rape and the worse extensions of 'unwanted attention'.
i think it's also the fact that men are not taught to necessarily center other people's emotions the way women are taught to "cater" --- and this furthermore leads men to center their own desires to the point of being so blind to what a woman wants many men profess not to even know... many years into their own relationships. i think that's all related. Related thoughts on....
I absolutely agree 100 percent and have a post planned on this topic. Thats why I shy away from being angry at men and work towards more culturally constructive solutions. XX
well well said.
good post, @eco-alex. Thanks for bringing this up.
The biological imperatives are real, for both women desiring to be found attractive and men desiring to respond. it's an eternal dance, a poem, a song... and I don't think it will ever neatly fit into an intellectually constructed box. Me? Im happy that there is no clear answer and that a delicious tension remains. I say that as a woman who has also been violently raped, and yet who has come to accept that the myriad of signals we send out may be misheard, and that so many of our brothers are also frustrated, angry and desperately in need of intimacy and connection. Grateful for your perspectives.
wow.. im SO sorry .. i was going to write at the end of this post, that maybe 80% or more of the women i have known have been abused.. it is one of the unspoken things that is vastly underestimated.
i really love how you say about that 'delicious tension', what a way to put it! this was surely a hard post to write, im not even sure i know how i feel even after writing it!
hugs to your perfectly healed arm <3
Hugs back. :) It IS a delicious tension and will always be an art more than a science. We CAN heal and release the wounds we carry... and we are better, stronger women, men and lovers for it. The part of us which has been gouged and healed feels more deeply and holds a greater depth.