RE: Now you can see the numbers.
not at all! I used your innocent question as an opportunity to REEEEE all over the place, precisely because I feel and hear and see your frustration alongside that of witnesses and people who bought steem and coders and newbs alike. We're all standing over Steem right now poking it with a stick saying DO SOMETHING.
So much like chatting with Bluefin earlier, the best I can do is pull some devil's advocate things out that I do think the EIP would be able to do and some truths that would be "for" the EIP, regardless of my personal feelings either way.
- Self voters do have to share. Right now, the worst egregious (important distinction) self voters are getting the majority of their vote back as author rewards without even thinking, and sharing less of it with other people who curate them. In a 50/50 world, the self voter puts more of their cut into the curation pool to be shared between everyone. So if nothing else changes, the people also voting will earn a bit more themselves and the author-self-voter has to share a bit more. Not ideal, but also no worse than the currant 'instant' unshared return with author rewards.
- Curation does go up. When more minnows (or more everyone) votes together, the rewards go up. The stacked effect increases. Smaller schools of minnows will be able to curate, and actually see higher potentials back from their curation. Right now, we teach minnows, hey- you should be commenting and posting because you have to do that to earn since your vote is worth so little and your slice of the curation pie is so small so don't even worry about that! There's the thought (and some truth) that smaller accounts would actually see an increased effectiveness in curating good stuff or in schooling, because the split for curating makes it more equitable for them.
- If rewards for curation go up, then to take advantage of that, you need a bigger vote. The only way to get that is to power up. Now, don't shoot the messenger because this is a 'one size' statement, but we do have a lot of minnows who stay minnows because they pull out everything they earn and love that posting keeps letting them earn more. They're powering down already. Right now. (So are whales.) These same minnows are scared they will have to share more post rewards, but technically could be doing the same thing as the whales right now if they weren't powering down. Powerdowns are rampant already; causing more than an already increasing number is arguably a drop in the bucket of problems we already have and are already going unaddressed. So if people could earn more by having a bigger vote, which requires powering up, then there will be some (whether the number is significant or not) who would power back up to earn more faster.
- There are no rewards at all without curation. Why don't we all buy in initially, then use that to vote our own work, and keep 100% of the rewards? It sounds like a stupid question, but we're actually closer to that than not right now. A curator whale controls just as much allocation of the finite reward pool at 0/100, 25/75, 50/50, or 100/0. Same with smaller accounts. But where smaller accounts have literally only the ability to gain by being curated, a whale may not- so while we cannot remove stake commensurate control from a whale, we can tip the variables to make it harder for them to show up, write a sentence, and upvote it to keep everything. If nothing else, changing that cut actually places them in a position to lose more than say, a minnow, who couldn't just drop a fat vote on themselves and keep it anyways. They need other voters. All content creators need content consumers. If it's less lucrative for a whale to self vote, then it starts becoming just as easy for them to start voting on stuff to earn, and that starts spreading stake to places that wasn't seeing it before, which is, overall a net gain in a lot of cases. Distribution is a huge problem right now.
people won't stay in a place where their former rewards are leaving their meager pockets to enter the very fat wallets of others. (for not a drop more work , mind you.)
- people aren't staying. They already feel like this. They're already leaving. Any curation that leaves their wallets is a DIRECT result of them being voted by someone else already. So if we are pointing out that more curation leaves them to someone huge, it is also pointing out that they got a vote from someone huge. Right now, not a lot of someone huges are doing much voting, and not a lot of someone smalls can curate for a bigger cut. Either the huges get out and vote to collect more curation (meaning they are spreading more voting around than they were previously) or they keep voting themselves and the smalls are able to jump in and take more of that without a drop more work.
On PALnet, people are suddenly excited to curate. Some people are tired of writing but don't beat themselves up over missing a "daily post"... they just get out and vote! People are getting bigger and finding more feeds. 50/50 is looking AWESOME. But PAL isn't steem. The economic context is different. The 50/50 isn't the causation, it's a correlation with a much better distribution. Steem distribution is what it is, and there's no taking what someone has bought, earned, or mined, so we can't expect any numbers to behave the same. There are absolutely some logical conclusions about why it can and should work, but logic means nothing in the face of human behaviour. So the biggest and hardest pill to swallow right now is that the 1% have to change pre or post, yes or no EIP... and while some of those are witnesses, a majority of the green you'll find are actually going to be NON-witness whales, who have to post (and many feel to self upvote) to earn. You and me and all the red numbers... we don't get to touch that right now, and I'm not talking about downvoting (that is a whooooole other essay and I'm all for it. Plus, darling Taraz just nailed it.) They can drop an upvote on whatever they make and happily stay in their own bubble knowing they get most of the value and anything else from others is bonus. Their voters in many cases are just coming around for scraps. In the system that we have, what's better for small authors by some logic is fucking fabulous for the 1% that tend to put a black eye on our economics. What's worse for the small authors by some logic actually really does have a good chance of at the very least redirecting some of that untouchable curation to more people, which doesn't really change us much further from where we are.
The numbers above are an application of future circumstances overlaid on existing behaviour, with no accounting for the fact that attempting to accurately model future behaviour has to take into consideration environmental stimuli. The math in your post just says "here are people who have figured out the best way to do 25/75 for themselves, and let's add some numbers assuming that no one reacts with an equal and opposite reaction to the force of new numbers via 50/50." That's not an accurate picture any more than saying that the EIP is gonna fix steem and it's lambos on the moon in a quarter. But our biggest mistake is assuming that without some change in the top in ANY distribution, and HF, and any situation, that that 1% of black eyes are going to fade out and heal up just because. So slapping pieces of HF together needs to come with cultural change and a lot of that has to start focusing on uncoupling our intrinsic feel that "the money as it is RIGHT NOW is the only thing keeping people here."
I'm sorry, Crim, I appreciate your passion but a lot of this is just flat-out false. Especially the bit about how if the authors were just powering up they would be able to get a meaningful piece of the curation pie. With all of your advantages, and all of your willingness to power up, you've built a top-1000 Steem account and your share of the curation pool is... $1/day. Maybe under HF21 it will go up all the way to $2/day.
And most authors have no hope of ever getting as far as you have! They're not community leaders, or consensus witnesses. They don't have the ability to drive votes to get all the way to 20,000 SP. @elsiekjay may be the single-most-dedicated author Steem has seen in the post-HF-19 world, and she's all the way to 7000 SP, and a curation rate of fifty cents per day. Give her two more years and she'll be as far along as you are now - and still ages away from a meaningful curation income.
It's basically impossible to generate enough Steem to reach the ranks of people who will gain from curation increases without owning and operating some very successful Steem-based business. Authorship will not get you there, no matter how much the rewards pool is optimized. It's counterproductive to moralize at people for making the sensible economic decision not to power up their earnings when powering up gets them essentially nothing.
And twice of nothing is still nothing. You can look for magic motivation of the top 30 accounts if you want, but even if you get it, 50/50 makes it more likely that the top 30 accounts will be the only ones who ever matter.
I appreciate that you've taken time to respond, and with the greatest respect for how raw everyone is feeling, I'm sure that you read everything I said including my personal stance and previous comments and would certainly never purposefully try to imbue my words with a meaning they don't have, attribute personal beliefs I don't have to me... and I'm exponentially sure that your dismissal of "my advantages" is an unfortunate side effect of our focus on the stratification of the haves and have nots (which is why further above I suggest that we do our best to try to leave that out.) After a literal discussion of why I don't think we can so easily separate most people into classes or painted with one brush, I've just been doused with the entire can, and that's a pretty big step backwards in terms of discussion.
Dreamsteem asked me what some people who are in favour of the EIP are thinking and how they could quite possibly have any justification in doing so. I was quite literally asked to write that stuff out. That is why this comment is here: because there was an ask for the other side of things from the views of those who believe them. I've spent as much time talking with them as I have here with all of you, and I wrote it with the clear caveat of saying regardless of my personal thoughts, here are the ones that are most touted and valid. All of the statements are true. They are not false. But just like magic math and magic motivation, none of them can stand on their own. They depend on human behaviour. They depend on the context around them. They depend on other factors in the ecosystem. Which, since I'm sure you've read in my other responses or heard me speaking passionately about, I don't believe will happen, and why I don't believe the EIP will work or that it is a magic bullet that needs a HF focus right now more than Steem needs something like the SPS. However, I understand that it is easy to see the things that hurt and misinterpret, and that because of my wallet or the "green" for my account that it would be easy to view it through that lens.
With all that, I want to address your "moralization" statement, because between that and your suggestion that where I am today is simply a matter of advantages, I haven't felt so particularly like giving up in a long time. Quite clearly: we are talking about the EIP making people's work feel devalued and that people are feeling as though their effort is being taken advantage of. Your comment does exactly that to me while trying to debate that others will feel that way. One size does not fit all.
I understand that there is some sort of mental line where I became "a have" and that it becomes easier to read what I say as "from on high" and through a perceived lens of classes or wallet size answers, but that is as much a disservice to me as it is to those being disserviced by a potential EIP. I also appreciate that you've recognized another awesome Steem blogger, but not the comparison between us, because it is absolutely irrelevant. In one fell swoop there is the suggestion that "she works so hard, but look, there's still no hope for her," and also that "you've got some magical money making advantages and there's only marginal hope for you". I know what you were trying to do, but it largely falls flat.
I didn't drive votes to get 20,000k SP. I bought Steem, with fiat scrimped from a full time job, that I kept powered up (It's a net loss on investment, and I didn't power it up just to try to earn more curation. I delegate much of it and work towards trying to find people not getting rewarded.) I on average, post once a month, because witnessing and community come first. Because I don't post, I can't ever be "red" in the post's math; I have removed the only variable that can produce a negative result. That's not causation, it's correlation, and it's correlation to a stance that people believe I must have just because now "I'm big." Being a witness and a community leader aren't a magical advantage bestowed upon high, by luck. It has been two years of full time work on top of full time work, being available all day every day, paying for servers out of pocket, giving my time freely and without "return" (which is of course untrue, community is my value, forever.) If you removed what I have painstakingly saved into my account over two years of witnessing and buying, I would have as much as, or more likely, LESS than Elsie. And through that all, a truth remains: if I have some Steem, and then I sell some Steem, the result then is I have less Steem. I didn't shame those people. I didn't say they have to change. To try to suggest that pointing out that if every person sells their stake that they also will not have bigger stake is some sort of counterproductive shaming run is projection. I also think unrelated to the EIP it's a bit frustrating that everyone demands votes, but also shouldn't be expected to power anything up. Who is voting? When an author writes, who pays them, then? Why would any single person hold any Steem at all, ever, if all there are are classes that must buy Steem to pay others who will liquidate all of it? These are not questions or thoughts that are moral, but intrinsic to our blockchain's existence. It's okay to allude to them in a discussion, especially when asked to. I did not in any way, shape or form, say "if the authors were just powering up they would be able to get a meaningful piece of the curation pie."
Regardless of the EIP, let me put my face on it, so that we can try to bring the "haves" and the "have nots" a bit closer. I recognize that now, my face matters less, because of my "class". I only use the terms income and salary, because as long as I witness, they are valid. I am required to run a working server with the proper software, and there is a set amount for recompense if I do. If I do not, or am "fired" by being unvoted, that goes down or stops. Part of that job is being accountable to voters. Despite being exactly the same as other authors in every way, in the last week alone, I've been lectured on chain that as a witness and a community leader that I should never sell Steem or power down, because my responsibility is to the ecosystem around me to power it up to help Steem price and other authors. I received an angry DM from someone who was mad that I wouldn't follow their curation trail because it is my job as someone with big stake to share that with authors. I got another asking me to stop being selfish by holding liquid Steem and instead to power it up and to delegate it to smaller people's projects (which I do, but not this particular one). Somehow, I hit an amount where I went from being "one of you" to "one of them". Somehow, despite everyone saying "hands off my wallet," I hit a mark where mine became community property. Even though I don't get to be an author any more, and the income I am making from an actual set of requirements is not vote or content dependent like an author, no one will come around and defend me for "making the sensible economic decision not to power up [my] earnings when powering up gets [me] essentially nothing."
A lot of this response isn't about the EIP at all, but instead about the way we talk with each other about things like the EIP, and about exactly why I keep saying we have to treat each other as individuals instead of trying one size fits all answers. It's too easy to assume what people are saying and thinking and feeling versus what they are - and I mean that largely in a bottom up sense, but not entirely. It really is a really shitty 1% that will fuck up our economics regardless of the number spread. In any case, this has become long enough and I realize it doesn't any of the points you've made as much as I feel you didn't pick out the points that actually mattered to me. Thanks for the dialogue.
Thank you for stating what I tried to state... And putting it so clearly.
I tried to show that in my chart...that it is mathematically impossible to regain what is lost
We are losing 33% of something that is only OURS. And gaining 25% of something that is DIVIDED... with the highest stake holders getting the lion's share.
This isn't difficult math.
Even with all the differences of all the people on steem....no matter what strategy they employ.... They have LOST. (Unless they are big accounts)
And i showed that in the chart
And I will show it again... 30 days after HF21 has been employed, when I make the chart of the SAME people again. it's not just a prediction....it's math, people.
Thank you for making me feel less insane. 😉
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Bribing people to vote has always been a terrible idea. It attracts the people whose only reason for voting is that they're being bribed, and those people are always going to be looking for opportunities to increase their bribe at everyone else's expense.
It necessarily follows that doubling the bribe is only going to double the problem.
Funny you are saying something different than others. Others are saying it will disinsentivize self voting, but you state the correct reality that this will increase self voting, which means more will be curating themselves, leaving less for Others, especially the whales.
This means those numbers shown in the capture above will probably be higher than shown for the big guys.
Then there is the downvote pool. This again only helps the big guy, because the little guy will remain just as scared to downvote as they are currently and has always been. It'll simply fund these retarded flag wars, making it even more profitable for the Oligarchy.
None of this will change a thing. Highly followed accounts will get more empty votes to feed off the higher curation rewards and the little guy will receive fewer. So, these two portions of the HF21 proposal will only increase the bad behavior they are claimed to be a fix for.
The rationales aren't rational and it all sounds like spin from the big guys, to convince their counterparts to vote this in and our opinions dont really matter.
All of our concerns are being brushed aside, even by you with ridiculous spin.
You state, " Something must be done, this isn't perfect, but it's all we got." What a load of shit and is you just trying to quiet us down.
Steemit is just modeled after the failed American Political Template and listening to this bullshit spin just proves it further.
There are always other options, period. You don't just throw new untested, irrational abstract idea's into action in real time just to see the outcome.
You do the math, show the math, experiment and test many times over before changing the code. This is how science works, but you choose politics over science, which will fail.
There are literally 30+ competitor's for Steem right now with more coming. All their TOKENS are worth less, but author's are actually earning more there than here.
All I can do is shake my head and be glad I haven't wasted much of my time here and none of my hard earned cash.... @crimsonclad
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Again, I appreciate your response, and with respect to the fact that people are rightly emotional about this topic, I'm going to point you at this comment I made so as not to write another wall of text people won't read and then comprehend. That's a clarity issue, but I also think it's a knee-jerk, gut reaction issue.
All I can ask is that people don't assume I'm saying anything.
No. There is no place at all that I state this, and just like I'm here having a dialogue with all of you (the opposite of telling you to "quiet down,") I also won't allow you to misconstrue my clear words- posted multiple times in this thread- because you're angry about the overarching situation. You have all rights to be angry and speak your opinions, but that's simply not what I stated and your insinuation that I am attempting to silence people is unacceptable to me, so hopefully if you get the chance to re-read my comments for what they say, and not what you feel they must mean that will help us at the very least (unintentionally, I'm sure) not put words in each other's mouths.
@crimsonclad, Here's your direct quote, "Feeling that the EIP is a fuck you to little guys misses out on some of behaviors the EIP could potentially encourage that we simply cannot achieve any other way,"
So, yes you did say that... The rest of my statement explaining what I see you saying is simply my take, because I cannot believe you actually believe yourself...
Oh and disagreeing is not being emotional. Please don't try to downgrade my opinion in such a egotistical manner. It's just another smokescreen. You are wrong, period...
I'm not even calling you emotional. You're looking for ways to downgrade your own opinion on my behalf. I'm here answering you completely reasonably. I'm not going to touch the egotistical bits... but please don't forget to include the second, direct quote, directly following your direct quote that you trimmed off and left out. Context does matter:
Followed up by,
Really, here's one, "Again, I appreciate your response, and with respect to the fact that people are rightly emotional about this topic,"
Here's another to another user by you, "I appreciate that you've taken time to respond, and with the greatest respect for how raw everyone is feeling,". Stating it broadly doesn't change the implication.
As for context, adding the second half makes no difference to the portion I was addressing. So, the context I highlighted is paraphrasing, " this is the only way".
Adding the second part you are saying the same thing except your implying something is better than nothing, which is ridiculous...
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Other people in this thread, including Dreemsteem, have broadly stated they're mad, and I have no issues continuing to address that because I know they are and I do respect that. I also know you feel like you're backing me into some magical corner of logic here, but instead you're basically just repeating things trying to implicate implications and making a muck of it while trying to project I'm projecting on to you.
My actual feelings, which again, I've repeated in many places, are the exact opposite of your badly implicated implication. The EIP numbers are not better than nothing. Now is not the time. They do not solve any of the problems that we need to, and even if it does go through, it won't change the effect of the distribution and 1% abuse, and the price of Steem. Any discussion that does not involve shifting our focus to real problems, instead of debating an EIP, for or against, is not useful in any way to the current real problems of Steem is and not going to get us where we need to go. So yes, you're correct in one thing: there's certainly ridiculous here.
Why not simply disallow self-voting, period, on both posts and comments? Would that do any good?
Oh, and yeah, turn-off the bid-bots, as someone on @dreemsteem's other post suggested.
Would those things help fix the issue, without the 50/50 change being implemented?
Well, I can only trace through the ideas and arguments that are made over time. A lot of people have discussed this as a possibility, and I'm sure there are even forks who have tried it. It definitely pushes us into the area of needing to discuss alts or sock accounts created to do the exact same thing and how best to handle that... which means further curve changes, account costs, or perhaps the idea that there really does need to be more downvoting by everyone... and it gets harder to "see" who is doing the worst stuff because they might actually be X amount of accounts. It means that we have to ask ourselves, "If I expect someone to buy and power up Steem to pay me via voting, then am I myself expected to then do the same for them?". And I think, most importantly, that not being able to self vote to some degree is a pretty discouraging forcing of your hand. If the curation system fails you and you write a great piece that has no recognition or rewards, do you feel that with the stake that you have earned through blood, sweat, or tears, or perhaps bought dearly with other resources you shouldn't be allowed to allocate some value to it? If you write an insightful comment and it is wayyyyyy down on a post and you believe whole-heartedly it needs to be curated up into the best version of conversation on a post, should you not be allowed to use the resources you busted ass for to do so? This is not a flip question. In fact, even without disallowing self voting, these questions are still to some degree relevant.
I'm sure you've heard me say, time and again- voting yourself is not inherently bad. Standing behind your own work and saying, "I see value in this and have worked hard to be able to allocate value towards it" is not bad. I don't care what flavour your donut is as long as it's got sprinkles and at the end of the day you feel good about what you've done and how you're contributing to the ecosystem. The problem with the egregious self voters is the same problem with the egregious bid bot abusers is the same problem with botnet accounts farming rewards without self voting at all. I wish I could say or find that one size fits all easy answer because I would be ready to stand behind it and push for it as hard as I can. For now, I'm doing my best to listen to all opinions and build the best knowledge base that I myself can work from, as an individual, working with a blockchain of individuals.
and the sneak edit: Turning off the bid bots comes down to... how do you turn them off? Do you find a way to take their stake that wouldn't then put your account in the same space? Take the stake of the people delegating without then opening yourself to that form of abuse? Do you use a front end to hide them? (this is happening on Steempeak and on PALnet and others, and I think matters a bit) Redistribute a new asset without them? How do you give that asset value? (PALcoin's new journey.) How do you take a steem account out of someone's hands, or forcefully nullify someone's stake? What does that authority look like? Who can decide? Where is the line on enough? The answers feel so easy when we look at the examples of abuse out there, but unless you can convince a bid bot author to just...stop, or a bid bot delegator to just... stop, then there becomes a whole new HF's worth of potential changes to try to do some of these things (many of which people came to crypto to avoid by bank interference,) and even now- the distribution is done. If all the bidbots stopped today, the distribution is still inequitable.
All of these things are part of the whole- that economic context I discussed above. Were there one, simple, surefire one size fits all fix that we could implement today to turn it around, it would be done yesterday. But that's not where we are, and so now we have to challenge the way we think and the way we all act to try to push things in the right direction.
Thank you, @crimsonclad ~ I value your opinion and always learn things from you!
this change will work only if:
A. big accounts that are selfvoting, bitboting spam or whatever you do (not you as you) to get most of the steem, now start to spend hours on steem looking and reading/watching content to upvote. but that would be hard because on steem you have a lot of #belowaveragecreator s (that are on steem just because they suck and would be somewhere else making a lot more money) that are here just to take money from people that invested and are doing everything to make steem great. not really seeing that happening.
B. enough big accounts start downvoting selfoting, bitboting whatever you do to the point that the other side stops doing that. small acc will have no influence on it and will only be bystanders in everything, as they always were and as the system is made.
When they cut out self-voting...people create duplicate accounts to upvote themselves.
It's what I keep saying, you cannot stop bad behavior. Locked doors only keep the honest out. Criminals will smash the window, taking your purse and leaving you with the window to fix on top of it! Lol
And so... We will make the large accounts happy by paying them more.
Because they have the voice and power.
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They already have multiple duplicate accounts. That's the real reason the economy is failing. The current numbers are really only about 1/3 unique.
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