RE: Pizzagate repository just got censored by github - Backup links + Updated info
Thank you for the thoughtful comment. Which link is broken? I just clicked both of the links I included and they worked fine for me.
As for "condescending misinformed bullshit" do you mean Rational Wiki? I agree, the tone is often very condescending, but I have yet to find much bullshit. The sources listed and things I've looked into seem to be rather well supported on the topics I've dug into. For most of my life I was a Christian and even worked in Christian ministry for 6 years. I spent many years discrediting information and information sources I didn't ideologically agree with, but it wasn't until I started learning more about epistemology and logical fallacies that I was able to really evaluate truth claims effectively and let go of some perspectives I had that were not well supported by real evidence.
The satanic panic is not recent, for sure. As the Rational Wiki page talks about, it started in the 70's and was really big in the 80's and 90's but got throughly debunked as those who started much of the stories admitted and/or were proven as liars. Again, you (and I, to some degree) may not like the tone of Rational Wiki, but it's a genetic fallacy to judge the source of the argument instead of the argument itself.
Also, to be clear, I'm not arguing that sex trafficking and child pedophile rings aren't real. They are horrible and despicable. I commend those who work to expose them and protect the innocent. At the same time, I understand how destructive false accusations can be. I care about justice and it is a terrible perversion of it to see innocent people falsely excused. If a large group of people on the Internet are convinced beyond a reasonable doubt these people are criminals, I have yet to see that supporting evidence in this case. There may be some perversions, some questionable social media posts, etc... but is that what passes as hard evidence in this case?
Rational wiki is still not working for me, but my comment was based on pretty much everything else I'd read on that site in the past. "Professional" skeptics organisations have become a place for everyone to agree with the mainstream view and pat each other on the back about how smart they are for doing it.
Most are an echo chamber, and not "skeptics" at all.
Screenshot of the site still failing right now :
"The satanic panic" is a misframing in itself..
Agreed. This is a psyop wotith more than one layer.
Huh. I wonder what that squid proxy error is about. I assume that's an error on their side not with a proxy you're using? Odd.
Mass hysteria is a thing. I did a post recently about an historical example.
What I'm hoping for is for people to demand evidence and not pretend to know things they don't yet know. As for echo chambers, I see that far more often in conspiracy theory communities. It's fun and exciting and I get that, but rational skeptics take a different approach and enjoy not only being corrected when their evidence isn't well supported by also correcting others. It's not a place where echo chambers do well, but is a place where "citation needed" matters. If the arguments are well supported, they move on to other things.
Some people like going against the mainstream view because it's just part of their personality. That doesn't mean they are right or that their opinions are well supported. It doesn't mean they are wrong either. It comes down to good epistemology and what can be demonstrated as rational, logical, and supported by good evidence.
Either way, thanks for letting me share my opinion in your comments.
I would also consider myself a rational skeptic but i'm afraid your comments don't hold to that standard.
The only thing you have said that conforms to a true rational skeptic is "Could there be some truth to it? Sure". And yet from that point on you completely disavow that exact sentiment by declaring that even public talk of the possibility should be censored. That is not the view of any rational skeptic. If something could be true than it should be investigated until it can no longer be true.
For now i am speaking very broadly regarding any mystery criminal or natural. The only things that should not be investigated are those things that have been proven false. If something has been truly proven false it does not require gullibility or skepticism to believe but simply rationality. Before i go any further into any possible evidence lets first establish that rationality deems this a plausible case to pursue. Is human trafficking real? Yes. Is Child Trafficking real? Yes. ... Is it a big money business? Yes. Do people buy children for illegal activities including sex? Yes ... is it expensive? Yes. Is it easy to make the required connections to do so? No. Could one acquire a child for the purposes of illegal sex without having either large amounts of money or influence? Highly unlikely ... With this rational we must assume that the propagators of child sex trafficking are by and large rich and or influential. Are rich and influential people often on TV or otherwise in the public eye? YES... Has this been established through prior examples? Yes. Many extremely rich, famouse and influential people have gone to jail for human trafficking and illegal sex with minors.
With this established reality, if you are still "skeptical" that child trafficking takes place in this country and that rich and influential people are involved, then you are NOT a skeptical you are irrational.
The question is not, is this going on nor is the question do famous people take part in hideous crimes agains humanity. These cannot be the questions for anyone rational. These are facts. The only question that remains is who? We'll get back to that.
You then compare this the Satanic Panic. This is not a fair comparison and if truly compared would again implicate anyone who agrees with the main stream media as gullible and not discerning. The Satanic Panic was a wide spread vague idea that was largely propagated by the main stream media NOT CONSPIRACY THEORISTS and had no specific culprit. this left parents feeling scared and alone and they accused lots of people all over the country. This was also a wide spread and vague time period with no specific beginning or end so it is debatable weather or not anyone was convicted due to the Satanic Panic. You can trace when the term Satanic Panic was coined but it was coined AFTER the phenomenon had started and the start of the panic was a slow boil not a specific insolent. People have in fact been convicted in this country of abducting children and abusing, torturing and killing them. Some of these people were doing this during the Satanic Panic
That is NOT what is happening hear. PizzaGate has a specific starting incident that connect to specific culprits. I hear you and i don't disagree that it could turn into a broader wich hunt if we aren't careful but lets not act like that is happening before it is. Their are specific culprits and sufficient evidence not just for investigation but for possible arrest. The Podestas bear a more than STRIKING resemblance to two police composites of two men seen at the scene of a kidnapping. It is established that a friend of theirs Clement Freud lived 1/3 of a mile (walking distance) away from the abduction point. Clement Freud has also been accused of pedophila and kidnapping on other completely unrelated cases. AND sources do say he was lending his home to the Podestas at the time of the abduction.
If they were not rich and influential you know as a rational person this would be plenty of evidence for at least a formal questioning and a full investigation into their whereabouts at the time.
Maybe the rest of PIZZAGATE is a bunch of circumstantial crap and as a rational skeptic myself all we can say so far is that MOST of it is circumstantial. You can't say it's bull shit nor can you say it's totally proof. Either one is an irrational thing to say. The only fact of the matter is that this citizen investigation did put two men near a kidnapping and they DO look like the men eye witnesses saw at the scene of the crime. I don't care who they are. That is plenty for real investigators to take over and stop making the citizens that took it this far. If they come out the other end clean and clear then great. but you can't say as a rational person that their is no evidence against and and they should not AT LEAST be questioned by authorities. AND they shouldn't be offended by that. If i was near the scene of a crime and looked EXACTLY like the police sketch and they brought me in, i would happily answer their questions and provide my alibi.
Truly rational skeptics don't go around saying. "t all seems pretty ridiculous to me." Why? because they are rich? Because they are powerful? Remove the whole internet phenomenon of PIZZAGATE from your brain for a second and tell me. What about John and Tony pedestal being pedophiles or possibly just making money of the trade of human trafficking is "ridiculous" ? Please tell me. I AM NOT SAYING IT IS PROVEN. of course not. These are allegations and i for one would not want them burned at the stake without a trial. I just want two men that match the eye witness accounts and have access to the scene of the crime to answer some questions. There is NOTHING irrational about that. Being a skeptic does not in any way mean you hault an investigation simply because their isn't conclusive proof yet.
If you are a skeptic then you shouldn't be convinced yet. I'm not convinced yet but again if you are a rational human let alone a rational skeptic you should also doubt the main stream media. They have more to loose than some bloggers or even a poor possibly innocent pizza shop owner. And I don't mean to make fun of him if he is innocent. I just mean to say that if you back up a little and really look at the whole picture, the main stream media has already picked a side and they cannot afford to be proven wrong to any degree. The public faith is already hanging by a string and if this gets blown open all of MSM is going down hard.
Any rational skeptic looks not just at evidence but motive and strategy. Its a chess game and i think you know that. Just play me a hypothetical. What would you do if this were real and you were in charge of the news and you were guilty. Now compare that to what they are doing and I doubt you will see any disparity. Again. THAT IS NOT PROOF. I know that. but a true skeptic is equal opportunity and skeptical of all sides until the facts are no longer subject to opinion. Saying this is for sure true is not rational but saying its "ridiculous" is not based in fact and is not also rational.