Vote Bots: Great tool or destroying the SteemIt community?
Greetings all! Even though my passion is permaculture and digging in the dirt, if you met me now, you may think otherwise. Steem has captured all of my attention. I love this platform. All the different nooks and crannies that exist. Soooo many rabbit holes. And so much knowledge that can enhance or improve my user experience on SteemIt. My garden wilts as my steem account gets watered.
Are Vote Bots Good or Bad?
TLDR version: While some bots have conditions that make them less free to abuse and less spammy, there are obvious concerns about people using bots to upvote crap content, just to make money and build rep scores. What is the feeling of the community on the use of bots?
So, as a newbie (I am still totally a noob, just not sure how I got my reputation score up so fast...yet another thing to look into), I recently began hearing about these Vote Bots. It started when a friend sent me 2 SBD to join @qurator, through which I found out about @qustodian.
Vote Bots basically accept transfers of SBD dollars in exchange for upvotes, with the idea being that the upvote is worth more than the SBD you sent the bot.
To me @qurator seems like the most harmless of the bots. This is because in order to join, you have to have your posts be checked out and verified by humans that make the call of whether to let you in. This presumably reduces spam posts and such. Once accepted, they will upvote one of your posts every 24 hours. The more you upvote their content or the more Steem Power you delegate, the higher percentage of the upvote. Great. I like to think this helps the newbies get a bit of traction and I am grateful for the service.
Then I found @qustodian, which is like your traditional Vote Bot. You send them a certain amount of Steem Dollars (SBD) and in the memo line of the transfer, you paste in the link of the article you want to be upvoted by the bot.
Once you send the transfer, at some point throughout the day, the @qustodian bot will upvote your post. Some nice things about @qustodian:
- You have to be a member of @qurator, which require human verification, ensuring post quality
- The bot will guarantee a 2.5x return on your transfer. So for every 1 SBD you send, they will give you an upvote worth 2.5 SBD. If the bot cannot provide a 2.5x return (his vote power is down due to lots of vote requests that day), he gives you what he can and refunds the rest of your transfer, in order to make sure he still gave you 2.5x.
- You can only use it once a day.
These sorts of conditionals help make the @qustodian bot pretty chill. I am proud to be a member of @qurator and thus I do not mind seeing the @qustodian bot comment on my post. It feels a bit exclusive or something.
But What About the Other Bots?
I have since discovered a whole world of bots. Bots that give refunds and bots that do not. Bots that are obvisous scams and bots that are really trying to help minnows along.
So I dove in and played around.
I found this great tool for tracking bots called Steem Bot Tracker. This tool has everything you want to know about loads of the Bots on SteemIt. It provides an upvote calculator that gives an estimate of what sort of upvote you would get for a certain amount of investment. It shows traits of each bot, like whether there are refunds, how often they vote, and more.
The last two of my posts, I went crazy, playing with the bots. Beep Boop Blip Blop...I'm a human playing with robots.
And it worked. I have all kinds of little spreadsheets I made now that help me determine the actual profitability of the bots I used. (tempted to share them too, but maybe that is for another post)
But honestly I dont know how I feel about it.
Here are some of my concerns:
- It looks spammy to have loads of bot comments in the comment thread of your post.
- Maybe the whales and dolphins that happen across my post will be turned off by the use of bots.
- Maybe my #homesteading and #permaculture community will start hating on me for using these bots.
- I feel the growing urge to just post anything in order to use bots to upvote my own stuff.
And obviously, this brings us to the real question here.
If SteemIt is really supposed to be a platform for the people, where do bots fit in?
Are Bots part of this community. Do people worry that if some users just rely on bots, they will just post complete crap and just tweek the system to look popular?
I truly am curious about this. I do not have any answers. Part of my thinks I will start waiting until day 5 of my post and then going crazy using a mix of 10-15 bots to get the most payout right before the post passes 7 days. That way, there are 5 days of the post looking normal, potentially attracting more attention of curators. But this also feels a bit 'shady'.
##I really want to hear from the community on this. Are steem bots good or bad?##
Please comment on this. I am very very interested in what the people say...
As always, this post is full or original content and photos.
I will preface this with saying my thoughts below are in regards to real bloggers/users on Steemit using bots. In other words, quality content bloggers who produce their own content.
There are two ends to this spectrum:
It really comes down to where the user lies between the two.
Neither is right or wrong, and a person can go from one, to the other, or in between as they wish.
To be completely transparent and honest, when my goal was to build my earnings on Steemit I used the bots. I made calculated payments that would net a set amount of return for my investment. It worked well, and I made money for my posts. I still wrote my original quality content but helped to subsidize myself with bot earnings too. --- Fast forward to now, and I don't use bots. Probably because life has me so busy that I do not have the personal time to invest in the activity and (to stick with my above analogy) my current goal is not to earn money on Steemit. There is absolutely nothing wrong with being rewarded for your work. Some are content with the organic earnings from followers. Some wish to subsidize themselves with a higher payout potential. I support both.
I've been on both ends of this spectrum. I find myself in the middle at this time. Check back later. ;-)
your answer resonates with me. I am not here for money. i dont mind making it....but it is not my main drive. I have thought to use the bid bots. and i have used qustodian...but that feels altogether different. maybe ill still do it. maybe not. it worries me that it seems to push up shitty quality...but hey...i guess if you suck..it helps your suck find value.
Very well constructed post - thanks for putting it together.
I have never really had to spend any time considering bid bots etc.
To me the equation really is quite simple. Steemit is about human interaction. That's it.
So I don't see any need for bots.
If others use bots, that is their choice.
But as a baby dolphin I am less likely to vote on posts with bot votes.
Thanks @pennsif. Glad to see your comment here. I like your words, "Steemit is about human interaction."This seems very true to me and is one of the biggest reasons why I like Steem. I truly got tired of all the pages advertisements and boosted posts on FB and I would not want Steem to go in that direction. Still unsure where I stand on the bot completely, but tempted to leave the post unboosted, and if I ever consider using the bots, it would be on the 6th day of the post, right before the window for earning payout closes.
Agreed, I'm more concerned with earning the votes of people who actually appreciate reading what I write. Means more than earning a penny from an auto upvote
👍
I also agree, I came to Steemit to get a cultural education!
As a noob myself, I found this post to be exactly the type of thing I was looking for. I too, find myself trying to navigate these unknown waters and and contemplating the same questions.
What are your thoughts on the promotion tab?
I too, agree with @mountainjewel when she wrote “I think a good use of bots could be when you have a really special post you really want to make sure it gets seen.”
I never really thought about the consequence of more influential people not engaing (thoughtfully-commenting) on your content because the comments on your post are full of spammy upvoting bots.
Too add to that,@Metzli comment made me have to take a step back and ask: are the long term users here just looking for “good content”, or are they also looking for the rich back and forth that tends to organically ensue in the comment threads of satisfying content.
For a while, I thought you’re typically wasting your time when you’re reading the comments, but with time and wisdom, it’s become the opposite. It’s becoming more clear to me (opinion)—that the conversations and connections that are had and made in the comments section are what add richness and value to the content, that bring it back full circle and creates that sense of community. Thanks for the post!
Btw, I’m a fan of permaculture too, I’m looking forward to reading more of your content!
It shure is @designeffort. I had a VERY short stay so far on steemit.com, yet it was only in the comments and in the interaction, that I sometimes had a very unique feeling about really meeting people who value what you say or that you value what they say.
@designeffort I actually never clicked on the Promote Button. I guess i had seen it before but never got drawn in.
I also agree with you 100% about the comments. My favourite thing to do on steem is to go to the new or hot sections of #permaculture , #homesteading , or #steem and read good articles and comment on them. I love findig stuff that peaks my interest and then seeing if the author or other steemians will engage in a dialogue with me. I guess its true that the bot comments would just clutter it all up. Nice Gif too!!!
Hi @squdsi1. I guess bots dont make sense. Not only that it looks spammy as you said, or adding bots in the last two days might feel shady. I think why fighting so hard for "free" money. It costs so much time to trick these bots and people for some dollars.
From my side, and please correct me if I am wrong I go with what @theferalone said in this post: https://steemit.com/steemiteducation/@theferalone/field-guid-to-steemit-how-it-works-and-how-to-survive-your-first-30-days
Why not just investing some real money into the system, upping ones curational power, whilst generating real financial backup for the whole steemit community and also gaining credibility:
Quote @theferalone
How do you think about that perspective? I am thinking strongly about investing that way (not only from the curational perspective, but also because I am convinced this platform will rocket up in 2018), yet not only steem is new to me but also crypto currencies in general, so there is still some research to be done.
I am with you there. I went through a trial of using a few bots, just to see what they were about, and if they really helped, and what I found was that they really don't. The only ones who do make money are the bot creators...it is a business.
But I have invested over half of the SP/Steem I have, because I feel it is a good investment. And when I upvote someone, I know I have invested in the pool I am sharing.
So in the end, I have one auto-upvote from MSP-lovebot, but that is because I delegate 250.00 SP to MSP. The politics are thick though...so not sure what I will do in the future for delegating...but I know I will continue to invest a little here and there as I can.
Hello @elew. What is the MSP-lovebot, and why is it different?
I am not really sure that it is different, but the reasons are different. MSP (if you do not know) is the MinnowSupportProject. So I delegate SP to them to help out new minnows, for upvotes, for all the programs MSP has created to help others, etc. The MSP-lovebot is really just a 'thank you' bot to support the people who are supporting the project....so you see it is a circle.
I think it is good, because I don't cash out my SBD, I power it all up in order to give back more. It is nice to see support come back from the places I support.
But then, it is still a bot, so in the end I am penalized by dolphins and whales for having a bot upvote...kindof a catch 22...good to help, bad to be appreciated for the help.
Thanks for the info @elew.
Thanks @elew I think investing in SP is very smart as I said above. WOuld love to learn more about your experience with delegation and also a bit about the 'thick' politics. I have not yet delegated anything. If I do it would hopefully be to a good cause that is trying to build community.
See my response to my-permaculture above. But on to that I will add...
So thick politics, meaning hard to navigate, many conflicting views. Steemit is still a new site, and as we go through the turmoil of changes, differing opinions surface. Should people upvote their own post, one camp says no, the other says yes because they put hard work into it.
MinnowSupport is no different. Their mission is amazing, but in just a few short months they have gone from startup to literally becoming a town. I mean there are 6000 to 8000 members, which is twice the size of the town I grew up in. They have their work cut out for them...but all said they do an amazing service for the new steemit users.
I was there when it started, watched it grow, and delegate SP to help them out. I only delegate a smidgen in the big picture, but it all helps.
We will see where it all goes. I am feeling like I would prefer to support a smaller group. I think it is all personal preference though.
The thick politics are site wide, growing pains. I assume they will sort themselves out eventually. There are many amazing people here :)
@my-permaculture THanks for the link to post by @theferalone. I will read that next. I agree that the work it takes to use bots could be better used building community and engaging in the steem platform.
I also agree that buying some steem to boost yourself while also supporting the platform is very smart. I bought a bit before the last big jump, but now, at $6.00, it is quite expensive. Hoping for a temporary drop to get some more. Wonder if it will ever come!
Hey good thoughtful post! I too have experimented in the world of bots (and feared whales won’t upvote in those cases- which I think has some merit based on my experiences And feared the homestead community will judge LOL- not sure if that one has merit). I was doing it a lot for a while, but I backed off recently and feel good about not using bots for a minute. I don’t know why exactly it feels better to not use them, but I think I always had a low level discomfort about it.
Also the thing with randowhale really turned me off. A lot of these bots are just lining the pockets of the already rich. They just take that sbd out and make $ while we get the scraps of their steempower votes!!
I’m still open to using bots, but also there’s a great feeling when everyone upvotes your post high organically. I think a good use of bots could be when you have a really special post you really want to make sure it gets seen.
From your calculations, it is a good ROI?
Using that Steembottracker site makes things easy. As far as I can tell, using at least 6 bots will guarantee some sort of ROI that makes it worth while.
That being said, I only have so many hours n the day and I really do want to engage with the community. Even though I like playing with numbers, I would rather be finding good content and meeting people, as opposed to booping around with the bots!
And I agree, the randowhale things was really lame and makes me pretty angry!
As I am a super noob myself, I just started learning about bots. I honestly did not come to steemit for the money and will not start publishing %#&@ just for the payout. That said, I won't turn down payouts, but it's not my main incentive here.
In my opinion, the 7 day post limit is a large part of the problem. People (sometimes) work hard on a post and time just swooshes by and nobody noticed it. In contrast, an YouTube channel can and will bring money even on 3 year old videos. In other words, there's value in accumulated content.
The current steemit system encourages constantly pushing out stuff, regardless of what your reality might be. Suppose you're in a car crash and cannot post for a month. No payout. All the while your video channel continues to generate income.
I find that mildly insulting; although I understand the reasons, I'm sure a technical solution was a more appropriate than a silly restriction.
If I wanted to exploit the system, I'd make a separate account and use that just for play. Otherwise it's just too embarrassing, at least for me, scratching for every penny when content must be king.
As a matter of fact, I tested a few bots and considered joining Qurator, but after reading what you have to say, I'm not even sure about that. I'd much rather be included in the weekly homesteading newsletter, than to rely on hacks for exposure.
Thank you for writing this, you gave me food for thought. I guess I can consider myself a purist... Or an idealist?
@bobydimitrov I agree with the problem of the 7 days. Its a big obstacle and makes one want to split a quality content into may small pieces, so that one can keep up with the pressure of daily prsesence. How does the community feel about reposting a long, in depth, old post, that, lets say is already 3, or 6 month old, or even a whole year? Would this be a solution to make the rewards for a post last longer?
Reposting would get you votes from Cheetah, and then the steamcleaners would eventually come and flag your duplicate posts...thick politics ;) Reposting highly frowned upon.
I do agree however, that the 7 day window for upvotes could be longer. Not sure how they would make that happen, but if say all posts on one's page had a payout every 7 days. I know there are many very good posts that I find around day 20, or months, even a year later that I would love to upvote.
Hi @elew. I recntly got informed about and into Cheetah and also steamcleaners, well it was actually the other way around. It was when I encountered my first heavy abuse of steemit, where a user was ONLY posting compy / pasted stuff from all over the internet. Good to have these guards working in the community!
Yet as @bobydimitrov said I hope the community will find out a way of not locking down older than 7 days content for ever. It just is not right, A good article has value for a very very long time. And this should be mirrored her in our community as well.
hehe, and then there is @gentlebot, who just roams around Steemit looking for good comments, and upvotes them. No schemes, no payments, just a little appreciation. Gentlebot is like the best bot on steemit :)
I see that it is also a generous bot.
I think just reposting the same thing is not the best solution.
I also feel you about splitting up content to maintain a daily presence. I dont think that is a bad strategy at all. ANd for continuity sake, just link back to the previous parts of your post.
I don't have the time to split posts, link them together, etc, just to chase the extra payout. I have plenty on my hands already, even not counting the day job and the kids! But I've noted a general trend for shorter posts, a photo with few paragraphs... So that sucks for me, as I'm a fan of longer format. Maybe I should make another account where I would just share photos with bits of text - not much use in that except the visual impression.
Reposting sounds like a good solution, however that would split comments. Maybe in a future version of Steem we'll be able to repost the original content on demand, for example pay a fee and mark the post as a new one, keeping all the comments.
I have no idea how the community would react to that, maybe we should ask the others in the chat?
Hey @bobydimitrov. I understand the comment splitting would be sad. I hope steemit will implement a long time solution for content just like you sketch it. Otherwise I will not get old on this platform, as I really would like to dive deep into the long format as well and this speedy (and daily) publishing are not what I am after.
And to be clear and honest: Steemit IS about earning money for me. It sabout earning money with helping others and the spreading knowlege in a community that values these efforts and sharings. If I would not be here for the money, I would certainly not put up with all that spam, flagging plagiarism and fighting for this site to become a content page, rather than a fast click stock market.
@bobydimitrov This is a great comment. I know exactly what youre saying about the 7 day earning limit. I watched this interview with @carlgnash (https://steemit.com/blog/@doctorcrypto/ep-2-of-4-curie-interview-with-a-top-curie-curator-carlgnash, I think thats it) where he mentions the idea of curating old content, resharing it via new post, and then splitting that payout with the authors of the old content. I love this idea. I think we need more of this.
There is certainly an underlying feeling I get when I read old posts. Unless they are great, a small voice in me is saying, read fresh stuff...that is where the action is. But then, as you said, old stuff that is great quality gets ignored.
I have been reading loads about Steem and have found a number of invaluabe posts with loads of info. I even thought about making a post that features two or three of these old articles and then sharing the upvote with them (just like @carlgnash idea).
Either way, I hope the community comes up with some ways to revalue old content. There is so much good stuff out there that gets forgotten.
Oh I'm sure the community will find a workaround! I just hope the developers make our lives easier by creating a proper solution, instead of requiring the workaround in the first place!
I also like the idea of "anthology" posts, if I may call them than! Sounds like a great project for @goldendawne or @kiaraantonoviche! ;) Make a post and call it "Best from the last month / year/ season / whatever" and share the rewards around!
The "Best from last month / year / season /whatever" sond like a really proper idea. Goes arounf the self-reposting and makes curation go a step further. Very good idea!
Personally, it's a total turn off. It upsets me having to wade through so much poor content on this platform and now I'm looking at some of it and guessing that low effort posts are getting attention and making money because they are 'gaming the system' or using bots. I guess that is a reality I have to accept and perhaps ignore right ? I can do that. But can other new users ? New users coming here seeking quality content and not just to make steem bucks ?
Full disclosure - I'm a semi noob who got on steemit a half year ago and was totally turned off by the 'everything is freaking great' attitude BUT am now back on and giving it another chance because I have some good people encouraging me to keep going and that there is legit good stuff in here.
Any recommendations for quality people to follow are very welcome.
Glad you came back to try again. I see you are permaculture oriented. Have you looked at @pennsif's list of homesteaders and preppers yet? They're grouped by area too, so you might find some like minded people there. The last list is here: https://steemit.com/homesteading/@pennsif/homesteaders-and-preppers-on-steemit-heading-towards-300-by-the-new-year-v11-23-dec-17
Sadly, not all are still active, but you never know, they might return like you. 😊
I don't use bots; although that's not to say I haven't done it early on in my steemian life. I did once, it was such a long time ago (within my first two or three weeks) and I can't even recall which one it was) and I really don't believe I ever got what I paid for; I even chatted with the "human" in charge of the BOT and he/she tried to claim I DID receive what was explained. Kind of left that "bad" taste in my mouth, so I shied away from bots.
Now... I am also a Qurite and did use qustodian when I first joined- I let it go that I still had that bad taste hovering on my tongue... but this time it worked out. PLUS, I (keep in mind I was a little red fish swimming aimlessly at the time when it came to cryptocurrency) had OVERpaid qustodian for their service. Well, the over payment was immediately refunded. What? Refunded? Yes... the difference was refunded back to me with the explanation as to why.
People have their own opinions, views and experiences with BOTS; whether good, bad or ugly. My only advice is to check into the BOT, check into the person/people behind the BOT and be vigilant with your results.
Maybe the best advice on this comment thread. Thanks @goldendawne!
I kept using the original works bot but I stopped. I’m sure I’ll call it again for my posts that only make a penny (I have more of those than I like).
I don’t like accounts that have too many bots on the comment section, I get excited that I’m going to get into some “deep” content only to find those beep bop beep pasted comments.
I also find it not so attractive when a post has already earned a lot. It makes mee feel like my measly upvote is hard;y worth it, if they already have $25 or something. There is something nice about finding posts that are high quality but not yet crazy upvoted.
Just quickly while I'm thinking of it, I did read somewhere that too many early votes and a self vote will put most whales off voting, so using bots later probably would be the better course if your post isn't getting much attention.
I've never personally bought a bot vote, but I know many have experimented with them. I am a member of the Minnow Support Project so I can use their vote bots twice in 24hrs, but I tend to use them for others who I feel deserve a bit more of a markup than they're getting and I can give. So I guess I use it to support my upvote as a minnow. I also get an msp-lovebot vote since I delegated to them, which I didn't realise was part of the package.
I get bot votes from being a member of the Team Australia community group, but these don't leave comments. I think @greenacrehome set one up for the homesteader group too, but I don't know if it's still going. Would you say that these are different to the paid bots?
On a side note I get some upvotes from accounts that don't post or comment at all and sit at 25 with their rep, but have pretty SP. Are these bots too do you think or just investors who prefer to just read?
I would add that I don't think bots should be able to affect your reputation. That should be earnt from real people.